Is 70 grains 3f enough umph

[Dr5x]

The original Minie Ball was in 1846 the base of the bullet had an insert that caused the skirt to flare. This was adopted in France in 1848. This worked but not all that well, it was costly and sometimes not consistent...then in 1855 an American, James Burton, at Harper's Ferry Armory discovered that by simply casting the Minie Ball with a deep pocket in the base, the skirt would flare without the complicated (and more expensive) insert.

LD

1855 at Harper's Ferry...
Did you work there?
I just had a hazel memory involving the middle 40's of the 19th century.

Dutch.

 

[Dr5x]

Actually though, the displacement of ballistic gelatin beyond the actual path of the projectile, really only applies to the very high impact speeds one gets with modern ammunition. An excellent rule for traditional black powder projectiles is....
"You can only depend on the damage caused by the actual contact of the projectile with the tissue as it passes through the animal."
As one can see from the chart that is often used, as most of us I'd venture to say are pushing our round balls from our rifles at 1600 fps or less...our loads are going subsonic at 100 yards or even sooner.
View attachment 21804


LD

Loyalist Dave,
According to your chart there isn't all that much difference between 80 and 100 grains of powder. If my weak eyes read that right.
The foster the ball/bullet the greater the resistance of the air.
Traveling through some very high ground in Wyoming , putting you hand out a car's window forces it back just a little compared to the pressure that same maneuver would do at the levels of Cheyenne or Green River.
Quite educational.

Dutch

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Loyalist Dave,
According to your chart there isn't all that much difference between 80 and 100 grains of powder. If my weak eyes read that right.
The foster the ball/bullet the greater the resistance of the air

Apparently, due to the shape of the round ball being a sphere, it acts to compress the air more as it flies, which is amplified when the speed is increased...compared to a pointed, elongated bullet, often called a spitzer style bullet.

Another question is what you mean by "difference".

I was taught that without a bone impact, a bullet must impact at minimum 1050 fps to be "reliable" in deformation, and when it has decreased to below that, it pretty much stops deforming. The reason that I use less than absolute wording is because that's mostly based on what is seen with modern bullets, often jacketed, often soft tip or hollow-point..., but I've been told by a couple Forensic Pathologists that it holds true pretty much for soft lead bullets including round ball.

So technically, Dutch, the 80 grain load on the chart has a big difference to the 50 grain load, at 100 yards, since the 50 grain load is below 1000 fps at that range.

In my case my 70 grain load and .530 round ball start out at about 1500 fps, so my projectile is starting slower, and is fatter than a .490 ball so it sheds speed a bit sooner, and is likely under 1000 fps at perhaps the 70 yard mark, and maybe even sooner.

Which is why the caveat "You can only depend on the damage caused by the actual contact of the projectile with the tissue as it passes through the animal" rings so true with me, and I repeat it for hunters. Still.... a 1/2" hole, give or take a few thousandths of an inch, is a pretty big hole in a game animal. Seems to get the job done in a rather rapid manner.

LD

 

[Irish lad]

Apparently, due to the shape of the round ball being a sphere, it acts to compress the air more as it flies, which is amplified when the speed is increased...compared to a pointed, elongated bullet, often called a spitzer style bullet.

Another question is what you mean by "difference".

I was taught that without a bone impact, a bullet must impact at minimum 1050 fps to be "reliable" in deformation, and when it has decreased to below that, it pretty much stops deforming. The reason that I use less than absolute wording is because that's mostly based on what is seen with modern bullets, often jacketed, often soft tip or hollow-point..., but I've been told by a couple Forensic Pathologists that it holds true pretty much for soft lead bullets including round ball.

So technically, Dutch, the 80 grain load on the chart has a big difference to the 50 grain load, at 100 yards, since the 50 grain load is below 1000 fps at that range.

In my case my 70 grain load and .530 round ball start out at about 1500 fps, so my projectile is starting slower, and is fatter than a .490 ball so it sheds speed a bit sooner, and is likely under 1000 fps at perhaps the 70 yard mark, and maybe even sooner.

Which is why the caveat "You can only depend on the damage caused by the actual contact of the projectile with the tissue as it passes through the animal" rings so true with me, and I repeat it for hunters. Still.... a 1/2" hole, give or take a few thousandths of an inch, is a pretty big hole in a game animal. Seems to get the job done in a rather rapid manner.

LD

Great post Dave!
Irish

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Thanks,

I think that really, there is a threshold that the users of this tech when it was all they had, understood very well. And they knew once it was reached, you got the results as wanted. We today like to look at the minutia to get the "why" or to discover "why it didn't...", while a vast array of long passed Good Ol' Boys (and girls) who understood cause and effect, simply applied the tech and won a contest or went home with meat for the table.

LD

 

[Zonie]

...

In my case my 70 grain load and .530 round ball start out at about 1500 fps, so my projectile is starting slower, and is fatter than a .490 ball so it sheds speed a bit sooner, and is likely under 1000 fps at perhaps the 70 yard mark, and maybe even sooner.

Which is why the caveat "You can only depend on the damage caused by the actual contact of the projectile with the tissue as it passes through the animal" rings so true with me, and I repeat it for hunters. Still.... a 1/2" hole, give or take a few thousandths of an inch, is a pretty big hole in a game animal. Seems to get the job done in a rather rapid manner.

LD

Here is a chart I made using data from the "Roundball trajectory" program I have on my computer for a .54 caliber roundball.
Like the previous chart I posted, the first dot on the left is the muzzle velocity. Each dot to the right represents a distance of 20 yards so, the next to the last dot would be the calculated velocity at 100 yards.

Personally, I think the over 1000 fps rule to get good expansion is only applicable to modern jacketed bullets.
Dead soft lead is easy to deform when compared with the lead alloys used in modern bullets so I have no doubts that a pure lead ball would easily deform into a rather flat disc at any velocity over 800 fps.

 

[Bassdog1]

Good read as I am currently working up a load for a rebored 45 TC Cherokee. I got a .445 Lee mold recently as I could not get any group at all with .440 swaged ball. So far 55 grains of Swiss has gotten the best accuracy and I am hoping to work up a suitable load for deer inside of 75 yards and want to make sure I have adequate velocity. Regardless I will make sure accuracy is excellent before hunting .

 

[Irish lad]

My modern wound ballistics courses lead me to the following:
Precise placement, penetration, and wound volume.
We only get more of the last by going up in caliber in round ball guns.
As hunters we also look for flat trajectories which we derive from powder brand, granule size and charge weight.
Our shoulders have veto power on the latter
Respectfully,
Irish

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good read as I am currently working up a load for a rebored 45 TC Cherokee. I got a .445 Lee mold recently as I could not get any group at all with .440 swaged ball. So far 55 grains of Swiss has gotten the best accuracy and I am hoping to work up a suitable load for deer inside of 75 yards and want to make sure I have adequate velocity. Regardless I will make sure accuracy is excellent before hunting .

Results do vary with each gun. But, generally, any loss in accuracy by increasing charges for hunting by 10 gr. or so would only notice from a bench rest at the range. Your Xs might become 10s. The 55 might work fine for you but, for me, a 65 gr. charge was a fine killer.

 

[Bassdog1]

Yep I am going to keep moving it up 5 grains at a time until it doesn't hold a good consistent group. Just got this barrel to start grouping since re-bore still a long way to go before its ready to hunt.

 

[Philip Lebow]

Gentlemen, the things that affect roundball flight are frontal area, initial velocity, and drag from air resistance, wake drag and momentum. Further, sectional density of the round ball, being low, contributes to loss of stability at distance.
The thing we have going for us is momentum of the roundball, and plastic deformation of the lead projectile upon impact
i.e. 'energy transfer.' Velocity helps us, but frontal area and momentum are the killers.
Just my 2 cents

 

[brazosland]

Great thread. 70 grains in a 50 is more than enough. I have killed hogs with thru and thru shots with 40 grains behind a .50 ball in a Lyman GP Pistol.

Yesterday morning I took advantage of our muzzleloader season to put another doe in the freezer. 80 grains of 3F behind a .535 ball at 75 yards punched right through a rib, destroyed a spinal vertebrae (like vaporized it), center punched and destroyed an off side rib and exited making a thumb sized hole.

Lock is dated 1852, barrel is original also.

 

[wojciste]

For woods walks and target 40 grains of 2F behind a 440 round ball. 60 grains for hunting. In PA woods all you need.

 

[Barrie Dale]

I use 60Grains in my 45cal senaca for target practice. New steel hips don't like the woods walk anymore. Nice Deer in your pic as well as the rifle also.

 

[lb94]

I have been hunting with my two 50 cal, TC Hawken and Traditions Kentucky, using 70 grains 3 f for some time. Always seemed right, the rifles like it. However, most of my shots have been under 50 yards. I now hunt where a 75-100 yard shot is not out of the question. Wandering if I need to go back to the range and try a heavier charge for the longer ranges? Shooting PRB, both rifles are 1 in 60, the TC has a Green Mountain replacement barrel.

thanks

That's what load I shoot in most my .50's for deer. Have only wounded 1 deer in my life with a muzzleloader. Was an 80 yd shot so most likely my error. Other deer never went farther than 40 yd, all pass throughs

 

[Dr5x]

That's what load I shoot in most my .50's for deer. Have only wounded 1 deer in my life with a muzzleloader. Was an 80 yd shot so most likely my error. Other deer never went farther than 40 yd, all pass throughs

I ALWAYS FELT THAT ANY TIME SPENT AT THE RANGE WOULD PROBABLY HELP YOU WHEN HUNTING.
IT MIGHT VARY FROM PERSON TO PERSONN
DUTCH

 

[Dr5x]

For woods walks and target 40 grains of 2F behind a 440 round ball. 60 grains for hunting. In PA woods all you need.

I THINK IF YOU HUNT YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PRACTICE WITH A HUNTING LOAD.
DUTCH

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I THINK IF YOU HUNT YOU SHOULD ALWAYS PRACTICE WITH A HUNTING LOAD

I couldn't agree more....
I use target practice and shooting contests as training for "the real thing". Muzzleloading hunting or when I do modern stuff for my job.
I figure with the muzzleloader, I need to know where that .530 ball is hitting at the 50, the 70, and the 100 yard mark, since I can see and will engage a deer that far.

Also, since I don't think hunters looking for deer back in the colonial period, would stop, pull the ball, dump the powder, and then reload with a half-load when the day was closing and no deer were taken but a bunny was spied, and meat was wanted for the pot..., so I also need to know where that ball is hitting when I'm at 20 yards from a target that's about 4" in diameter, or less...,

And my rifle will harvest squirrel and rabbit with head shots... because I know where it hits. I'm a big fan of "keep it simple".

LD

 

[Dr5x]

Here is a chart I made using data from the "Roundball trajectory" program I have on my computer for a .54 caliber roundball.
Like the previous chart I posted, the first dot on the left is the muzzle velocity. Each dot to the right represents a distance of 20 yards so, the next to the last dot would be the calculated velocity at 100 yards.

View attachment 22414

Personally, I think the over 1000 fps rule to get good expansion is only applicable to modern jacketed bullets.
Dead soft lead is easy to deform when compared with the lead alloys used in modern bullets so I have no doubts that a pure lead ball would easily deform into a rather flat disc at any velocity over 800 fps.

Zonie?
just looking at your chart is educational
So hitting a deer at 50 yards will give him a worse wound than if you hit him at 100 yards/
The hunter would be encouraged to shorten the range of his shot in order to increase the damage of his hitYou can quickly see the disadvantages of the longer distant hits.
Dutch

 

[hanshi]

If a 65 grain charge of 3F and a .440" prb from my 32" barrel will kill a deer (through and through shot) cleanly at 75 yards then 70 grains in even larger bores will do the same. My favorite load in my .54 is only 60 grains of 3F.