Is a smoothbore for me?

[TexasMLer]

I recently submitted a post in the Traditional Muzzleloading section asking about the possible use of shot in a .50 rifle for squirrel hunting. The responses basically told me that it wouldn't be a good idea b/c the pattern would be ugly and unpredictable. That is pretty much what I expected.
For squirrels, I was considering getting either a .32 or a .36 rifle. I could use my .50 but I don't know that I can shoot my .50 well enough in hunting conditions to make only head-shots on the little critters.

Then, today, it hit me...

I need a smoothbore!! (need...relative term...my wife doesn't see the need :

I have a question or two (closer to fifty), though, regarding smoothbores.

Are they accurate enough when shooting roundballs?
- 6 shots conistently in a paper plate at 75 yds accurate?

Is a roundball difficult to load into a smoothbore?
- without rifling, where does the "extra" patch material and fouling go?

Can you get a good pattern out of a smoothbore with shot?
- are smoothbores even designed to shoot shot?

Does a smoothbore Hawken-type rifle exist?
- I like the ease of cleaning that a hooked breach allows.

Without a hooked breach, do you still remove the barrel to clean your smoothbore?

What caliber smoothbore do you believe is the most versatile?
- squirrels, rabbits, deer, hog

Any "gotchas" with smoothbores?

Thanks!

 

[Musketeer]

Yes, no, yes, possibly, no, depends, yes! :: In other words, smoothies are capable, when carefully/properly loaded, of surprising accuracy. Forget those folks who say, "Aw. hell! You cain't hit the side of a barn at 20 paces with a smoothbore!" Six shots in a paper plate at 75 yds.? I've never shot mine at anything that far away, but I'd be willing to bet that some folks here on the Forum have gotten such results, perphaps even better. As far as ease of loading, when you work out the correct ball dia. and patch thickness, they load with relative ease. The patch compresses (within reason) to fit the bore, and fouling should be cleaned away every few shots anyway. Patterning? read some of the other posts in this section regarding paper shot cups and such. Personally, I shoot quail and rabbits with my 20 ga. (w/o shot cups) out to about 20 yds. or so with excellent results. I'm sure with a well made shot cup, I could possibly shoot nearly twice that far (though I'm generally a close-range kinda guy).
Fowling guns were designed to shoot shot at fowl (hence the name) way, way back, and muskets, though designed primarily to launch balls, work very well as shotguns too. This is one of the big reasons smoothbores were and still are popular, they can handle ball and shot. I'm not aware of any hooked-breech smoothbores, but then I'm only familiar with the old style smoothbores like muskets and fowling guns, which generally have screwed down tangs and pinned barrels.
My fowler is like this, and no, I don't remove the barrel for cleaning. I don't like the idea of driving out all those pins that frequently. You have to develop a certain technique, but once you do, perfectly adequate cleaning can be done with the barrel still in place. As far as caliber/gauge goes, we've had this discussion and some folks feel content with their 20 ga. and other like a 12,11, or 10 ga. My belief is that a well-loaded 20 will suffice at smoothbore range with patched RB, on anything up to deer. I haven't hunted one yet with my smoothie, but I wouldn't feel undergunned with my 20. If you 're going to be shooting at large boar, elk, moose, etc. I'd probably go with a 12 ga. or over. You can also load the larger gauges down for smaller critters. I wound up with a 20 ga. simply because I got a screamin' deal on a nice one from a buddy. My next long gun will be either a .69 or .75 cal. musket, which are, I believe, 14 and 11 ga. respectively. I hope this answers some of your questions, and I'm sure that somebody else (who has a helluva bit more experience than me) will give you some good answers too. YOU NEED A SMOOTHBORE ! :: :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Ditto to everything Musketeer has said. The twenty bore fowler is good for quail to turkeys and will easily take a big whitetail.
My English fowler will keep 3 shots on a paper plate at a hundred yards if I do my bit. This is a .600 ball in a .010 patch over 3 drams of ffg.
A real surprise to me was my 1842 Springfield musket. This is just your average .69 Armi-Sport completely untuned piece. If you think about it, a musket is really just a super duty fowler. This one tosses nice patterns and will kill paper plates just like the English fowler--it's just not as pretty and it weighs a lot more.

 

Are they accurate enough when shooting roundballs?
- 6 shots conistently in a paper plate at 75 yds accurate?
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i would say yes , i have seen first hand smooth bore shooters who can hold ther own with the avrage rifle guys. for the last 4 months i have been shooting my english fowler 62 cal/20 gage at our monthly club shoots and while shooting tie breakes and clangers i consistantly held in the top 4 places .


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Is a roundball difficult to load into a smoothbore?
- without rifling, where does the "extra" patch material and fouling go?
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no its very easy to load infact much easer then a rifle barrel. the patch hold the ball in the barrel just like in your rifle . the fowling gets pushed down ontop of the powder charge if the patch is right .,

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Can you get a good pattern out of a smoothbore with shot?
- are smoothbores even designed to shoot shot?
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yep they are , both shot and ball, even buck and ball this was one of the reasons for their popularity . with a good barrel and if you have worked up a load you should be able to get a reasonable close patern that you do out of a modern shotgun.


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Does a smoothbore Hawken-type rifle exist?
- I like the ease of cleaning that a hooked breach allows.
Without a hooked breach, do you still remove the barrel to clean your smoothbore?
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hawken bros while thought/ known for their short plains rifle also made full stocks and the name was used by several generations of hawkens .
I think however you are speaking of a modern half stock rifle , the answer is yes as many trade guns where cut down and made half stocks .
same whay you do a long rifle thats pinned . i dont pull my barrel but maybe 3 times a year . the lock however i do every time i clean.

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What caliber smoothbore do you believe is the most versatile?
- squirrels, rabbits, deer, hog
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I myself like the 62 cal /20 gage . many others like bigger gages/cal. I personaly have killed mule deer ,elk ,turkey, grouse ,quail, geese . if you take a look at orders from companies like HBC and AFC you will see that most orders for trade guns where in 57- 60 gages/cal or smaller when you think about all the game killed through the years that makes for alot of oppenions


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Any "gotchas" with smoothbores?
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ya the look on a rifle shooters face when you beat them with your smoothbore or when they start to brag about beating you ,you have the come back of "ya well you only beat me by 1 target and im shooting a smooth bore . after a while they start say AHHH manure he brought his trade gun again LMAO

 

[adkmountainken]

i can put 3 shots just about touching at 40 yards with round ball. wouldn't want to shoot farther than then and never have!
throws a very nice pattern at 25 yards which i also wouldn't shoot past. smoothies are great!!

 

First off Tex, I'm going to say something that may draw some fire.

Try shot in your fifty. If it is one of the button rifled barrels of TC, CVA or Traditions decent it probably does not have deep enough rifling to blow the pattern. There's a long thread on paper shot cups on this section, try that. you may also find that (perish the thought) those little plastic cups they use for sabots would protect the bore from leading and protect the pattern density.

What can it hurt to try. The only negitive result might be a filthy barrel. If it does hold any kind of pattern you would have the ML equil of a .410.

If you happen to have a TC product you may have the benefit of interchangable barrels, some in smoothbore. TC has offered .56, .58, .625 (20ga) and 12 ga smoothbores in the past. Some states allow only smoothbore guns and TC has responded positivly to those shooters' needs.

You also need to look at the type of smoothie you desire. they come in musket, fowler and smoothrifle. Smoothrifles have rifle type sights. A well loaded smoothrifle will shoot as well as a rifle out to 25 yards. I have seen several smoothrifle shooters take home first prize against rifle shooters in our area. I think it may have something to do with lining up the front thingy and back thingy and smoothly squeezing the trigger. I have seen these guys ring 12" gongs at 100 yds and do it consistantly!

If you know a machinist you could always buy one of the $49.95 Wally World ML specials and have him run a reamer through the tube. Punch the cheap .50 barrel out to a smoothly reamed 9/16 and you will have a .56 smoothie, 5/8 will give you 20 ga. The .56 would be safe in a 15/16" tube and the 20 ga would be safe in a 1" barrel.

 

[TexasMLer]

Wow! Great answers. Very detailed and informative. Thanks!

It is good to know that smoothbores shoot ball accurately. Where I hunt, a 50yd shot would be a long one, so a smoothbore would be a good fit.

When I asked if you remove your barrel when you clean your rifle, pins didn't enter my mind. Doh!
I would have to learn a new cleaning method because I have never owned a gun with a pinned barrel. I guess most people use one of those cleaning kits that attach to the touchhole or nipple?

The .62cal/20gauge sounds popular. I can see why. I cannot imagine shooting a .75 caliber lead ball more than once! In a full day at the range, I end up shooting about 40 shots. Shooting a .75 caliber 40 times sounds like a good ol'fashion thrashin' to me! :: You could
probably throw a bucket full of shot with one, though.

Doing a little research on the Internet, I found another fact about smoothbores: they are pricey! Well, the ones that I have seen so far haven't been cheap. Track of the Wolf has several very nice ones. I'm used to and am comfortable with Lyman GPR prices (pretty clever way of saying, "I'm cheap", huh?). ::
Some of the smoothbores at Track of the Wolf are several thousand dollars. They sure are purty too.


Thanks again for the great information!

 

[TexasMLer]

Ghost,

I do intend to try shot in my .50 just for fun. If I get good results, that would be great. I think it will be a fun experiment even if it is a total flop.

Hey, great idea about boring out a .50! I happen to have a CVA Bobcat, my first muzzleloader, that is just collecting dust. I keep it as a loaner. I think it is the same gun as the Wally World one you mentioned. I wouldn't lose any sleep at all over reaming its barrel out. I'll have to think about that. But that takes the fun out of getting a new gun! ::

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

MLer- One thing to think about here. It might be a good first step to make do with your present barrel or bore out a low cost replacement barrel.
But the fact that you have arrived here means it's already too late for you. The muzzleloading bug has bitten you and all hope is lost. And you deserve a fine smooth bore. Start saving and get yourself a nice one. Mine is based on the English fowler parts group from Track and is a lovely thing to behold. Weighs in at a tick over seven pounds with a forty two inch barrel. Swings like magic. If you can't build it yourself, you should be able to find a builder who will do it for you. Won't cost thousands either.
Long after you have forgotten what it cost, the pleasure you take in just holding it will make it worth while. Trust me--I just put mine away.

 

[Musketeer]

TexasMLer, I neglected to answer your last question:

Any "gotchas" with smoothbores?

There is one "gotcha" with smoothbores, especially flintlock smoothbores: Once the smoothbore bug has "gotcha", it'll never "letcha" go! :: :thumbsup:

 

i will have to disagree with ghost on the .410 statment .
the patern an most .410 is very good for the amount of shot they put out , i never got anywhere close to a good patern with my CVA50 .
dont cut the .410 bore out shes very good and has filled many a bag for many a years .
my 2 cents on the .410 shall we move on to the 30 30 ??? LMAO

 

[musketman]

Try shot in your fifty. you may also find that (perish the thought) those little plastic cups they use for sabots would protect the bore from leading and protect the pattern density.

This can be done easy enough, before going to the range/field, fill a sabot with shot and weigh the whole unit, this will give you a rough idea of the powder charge needed for the projectile's weight you are shooting...

Load the sabot in your .50 just deep enough to be flush with the muzzle, fill 'er up with desired size shot...

Next, you need an over shot card to hold the shot in place, these can be cut out prior to heading afield...

With the overshot card (light cardboard, like from a paper milk carton or cerial box) place it on top of the shot and run the whole unit down on top of the powder charge...

Cap/prime and you're ready to go... :thumbsup:

 

[Jack Walker]

I'm with Captchee on the .410 issue. Had one as a kid and shot dove, small game and some other small fowl with very good results. Now as for the firing of shot out of a rifle barrel, I wouldn't. Leading, getting filthy and bad shot patterns would be your least concern. Even though lead is softer it would eventually round- off the edges in the land and grooves. :m2c:

 

[No Deer]

Another option for a smoothbore with a hooked breech is a Pedersoli Mortimer smoothbore. I have one in 12 ga. that works fine, has taken a turkey and a couple of deer. I don't use it much as I have more fun shooting my 20 ga. fusil. As for a gotcha, once you shoot the smoothie, your rifle will most like start gatherin dust.
NoDeer

 

[musketman]

"Is a smoothbore for me?"

You will find that a smoothbore is a versatile weapon system, a "DO-ALL" gun...

In fact, you may find yourself neglecting the rifled guns once you start shooting a smoothie...

 

[madstone]

I am a sucker for a 410! I own dozens of ctg 410's and 3 BP410's. It is an expert's gun!
I even tried shot ctg's in a 45 auto! never killed one though!
I have one double 410 BP that began as a childs' BP. My daughters were very succesful as long as they learned to "hunt". NO long shots!
Never expect a rifled bbl to pattern well with shot. I have occasionally reamed out used pitted rifle bbls to every imaginable size. They pattern well.
One can "jug choke" them too, but it kind of upsets the compoments as seating takes place. Be surprized what a tiny bit of choke will do!!! Not enough as modern chokes, but just a little! Go slow and stop when the choke throws a good pattern!

 

I didn't read the posts, but a smooth barrel for your file might be the answer. Checkout barrels at Tracks' site- they have some octagonal smoothbores, but perhaps not long enough.
: If so, all you need are barrel loops, wedges or whatever, underrib, breech maybe not - may even use the same brech plug, as my two barrels do. Once made up, it's a 10 min job - or less. Mine takes 5 min to change over.

 

wife brought me home a new read today . first time i have read this mag and some of you here may have already im sure heard of it Backwoodsman
but here is the kicker im flipping throug it an low and behold there is a 3 page artical on the .410 smooth bore and its killing power care to guess what the title is

try "old time turkey guns " lmao some nice birds to so texas if you can get ahold of a copy of this article it may answer some of your questions and exspell some of the myths of the little smoothy many of us grew up shooting.

 

[berickson]

had a mean hankering for a smooth bore so i got jackie brown to make me a trade gun in 54 calibre which i took to be 28 gauge. nice and light (6#?) for chasing snowshoe bunnies and grouse. took me a while to come up with a good pattern for shot. finally worked with 1 1/8 shot and equal powder (approx 80 gr 2f) which is a 16 gauge load.i just use double cards over powder single card over shot. i think my gun needs a long shot column to work cuz the barrel is shorter than most for the scruffy bush i hunt in.
as to round ball & deer i wouldn't work past 30-40 yards with my skills (so far), "maybe" 50 yards if it was a perfect setup and the buck of the forest.
smoothies are a lot of fun, and judging from the accuracy stated on this thread i've got some work to do to measure up. but that's 1/2 the fun.
you definitely NEED a smoothie.

 

[whitetrash078]

Track of the wlf has a hooked breech eglish fowler kit, if'n you want something easy to clean.