Is chain fire more likely from the front end with ball or conical bullet ?

[M. De Land]

A ball has a very slight bearing/ sealing surface vs a bullet has considerable bearing/sealing surface.

Mike

Well, that's assuming the bullet actually seals the perimeter when it's not cutting a lead ring of any kind.

 

[Smokerr]

There you have to use some sleuting. If you have the right tool you can do what you have done, ie mesure the chamber mouth and further down (aka the 47 Walker). It may not shave but that does not mean its not squeezing a band out down inside.

My 76 ASP is like that, I was concerned on not getting a lead ring. It to is tapered.

You can drive a ball or bullet out and look. The one caveat is if you have an oval chamber, then you need to have done the drive out on all 6 (or measuring but that could be tricky without the correct pattern of measuring)

When in doubt, a lubed wad below the bullet is a precaution. I will not say it would stop all chain fires, but from the testing I have done, they look to be good flame arestors with no more than a bit of penetration on the surface (I tested with the wad in FRONT of the bullet for two reasons.
1. I wanted to pre load and not risk the wad contaminating the powder (not sure it will but did not want to give it 4 or 5 days possible chance - never sure when I can get to shooting).
Also I took the wad off the end as each chamber came up for the next shot. I inspected each one I took off.

2. I was running some .451 balls and that is about the top of the risky for seal area for a ball (or bullet). It may be below that but I think that is not worth it. I have not seen the wads affect accuracy and in fact I think they help a bit.

 

[nkbj]

Just speculating out loud about round ball leaving a little bitty flash channel between it and the chamber wall, perhaps their machine shop's propensity for producing oval chambers could have been another reason that early on Pietta decided to use undersized reamers.

 

[BeardedGunsmith]

Chain fires happen in the front. I've even had them happen on my NAA cap and ball revolver that doesn't have a recoil shield and it blasted the percussion cap off the adjacent nipple and into my forehead, because it happened at the FRONT (and I found the cap unfired). Flashy, bangy, fiery stuff up front.....
There's also tons of people doing tests on YouTube to try to make it happen with no caps on the other nipples and they only get the chain fire when they don't cut a ring of lead.

 

[nkbj]

There's plenty good reason to put grease over the balls when you're shooting a Dance.

 

[Smokerr]

Why would a Dance be any different than any other BP revolver?

When I shoot the .451 I used a treated wad as a precaution flame arrestor. Probably pushing 600 rounds fired and no problems out of a couple of 58 Remington NMA, ROA and a 47 Walker.

I don't claim my one off is the end and be all, but it does match what others have found including some who have tested to the point of Chain fire that takes place below .451 (recommended not to do .451 as that is a cross over but they don't say what point they do it reliably which I think is good judgment, your gun could be different).

 

[M. De Land]

The point being I have never heard of anyone shaving lead when using bullets of any type, only balls. So why is it so critical that balls shave lead and not bullets? It would seem that balls shaving lead would be of tighter gas seal to the chambers than are bullets and most all ball shooters are using over ball lube, wads or both?
So, are bullets less likely to cause multiple fire from the front or are balls if in fact most chain fire is actually occurring from the front of the cylinder which I question ?

Have any of you ever experienced or witnessed a chain fire when conicals were being used ? If so could you relate the particulars of the event ?

 

[45D]

Have any of you ever experienced or witnessed a chain fire when conicals were being used ? If so could you relate the particulars of the event ?

Conicals typically have 2 or more bearing surfaces that are oversized. With minimum support the surfaces "move" (swage) rather than shear material as happens with a ball. So, you have more "seals" to get through (with more distance top to bottom) than does a ball with a very minimal equatorial seal that won't swage into a nonconcentric chamber. That's what I think anyway! (Fortunately, I don't have to worry about that since all mine load from the rear anyway!! )

Mike

 

[AlexB]

The eras gone 31,36 and 45 conicals all shave a nice ring when loaded.
Only one I have that doesn't is the Lee .45 which also has issues with umfired rounds backing out of the cylinder due to recoil causing tje cylinder to no longer rotate.

 

[M. De Land]

The eras gone 31,36 and 45 conicals all shave a nice ring when loaded.
Only one I have that doesn't is the Lee .45 which also has issues with umfired rounds backing out of the cylinder due to recoil causing tje cylinder to no longer rotate.

If I ever get caught up again I have a few mold ideas to try out. I purposely look for and buy good small calliber Lyman, RCBS and other good Mehanite (fine grain cast iron) molds to lathe bore my own bullets for various calibers. I almost always can pick up these molds in new condition for ten bucks and all that is needed is to center them up in the lathe and bore out what you want for a bullet.
I came up with a good shooter for a .43 Spanish and a real dud paper patch number for a SMLE. The later one key holes at 25 yards but chucks the patch nicely ! I'm still scratching my head about how unstable that bullet is!
Never have made a cherry for a round ball though but should give it a try just for the experience. I've read relieving the flutes in a ball cherries serpentine configuration is a real job and Lee ball molds are so cheap and make good balls that it certainly would not be very practical..
I really like the looks of that short fat 195 grain bullet Bad Karma shoots! I'd probably make it a tad bit longer to come up to 200-210 grain range for a bit more penetration but profile looks right to my way of thinking !
I'm thinking that weight range should really work in the Walker for a good all around bullet!

 

[Sasquach]

I knew an old man who had been shooting BP revolvers for years and he swore by Crisco. He would glob a dab of Crisco in the front of each chamber when loading his revolver. I asked him about it and was told that it would prevent chain fire (from the front at least) and act as an added bullet lube. I have never tried it though. I have only had one instance of chain fire and it occurred while I was shooting an 1851 Navy Colt replica. I was using FFF black powder under an Ox Yoke wonder wad and round ball. I've always attributed that to my inexperience at the time and sloppy loading procedures.

 

[M. De Land]

I knew an old man who had been shooting BP revolvers for years and he swore by Crisco. He would glob a dab of Crisco in the front of each chamber when loading his revolver. I asked him about it and was told that it would prevent chain fire (from the front at least) and act as an added bullet lube. I have never tried it though. I have only had one instance of chain fire and it occurred while I was shooting an 1851 Navy Colt replica. I was using FFF black powder under an Ox Yoke wonder wad and round ball. I've always attributed that to my inexperience at the time and sloppy loading procedures.

I've used Crisco for years off and on and it works fine as long as your not shooting into the wind as it will vaporize and blow back on you covering your shooting glasses and spotting scope front lense.

 

[Sasquach]

I also do some reloading of modern cartridges with cast lead bullets. I have some Lee liquid Alox tumble lube and I have often thought of using it in a similar manner to Crisco in my BP revolvers. Another one of my ideas that remains to be tested. LOL.

 

[Smokerr]

I've used Crisco for years off and on and it works fine as long as your not shooting into the wind as it will vaporize and blow back on you covering your shooting glasses and spotting scope front lense.

That is what turned me totally off for BP back in the 70s.

While I hate contradict 45D, the JD Conical s as I got have one bearing surface, the nose is sub diameter at .450 to the bearing surface at .460 and back of that is the heel that is very rebated at .435.

The bearing surface band width is .080 roughly though of course that would squeeze out in a normal sized chamber.

 

[Bad Karma]

That is what turned me totally off for BP back in the 70s.

While I hate contradict 45D, the JD Conical s as I got have one bearing surface, the nose is sub diameter at .450 to the bearing surface at .460 and back of that is the heel that is very rebated at .435.

The bearing surface band width is .080 roughly though of course that would squeeze out in a normal sized chamber.

When fired the charge of blackpowder boots that bullet pretty hard and the rear undersized portion shortens and fattens up to fit the rifling.

 

[M. De Land]

When fired the charge of blackpowder boots that bullet pretty hard and the rear undersized portion shortens and fattens up to fit the rifling.
Snow bullet ?

 

[Bad Karma]

Kerr.

 

[AlexB]

H

Kerr.

He is asking if it was fired into snow then retrieved I think.
I have some of those kerr I pulled out of hardbacked books that had the same grooving in the base.
Good bullet I like it in the 58 with 35 grains of pyrodex.

 

[M. De Land]

H

He is asking if it was fired into snow then retrieved I think.
I have some of those kerr I pulled out of hardbacked books that had the same grooving in the base.
Good bullet I like it in the 58 with 35 grains of pyrodex.

Yeah

 

[TrophyGuy]

My own belief is that chain fires happen almost exclusively from the front from either sloppy bullet/ball seating, spilled powder, or most likely bullets or balls backing out of charge holes under recoil. That said, a conical bullet has more ways to be improperly seated than a round ball including tapered heels, badly shaped rammer cavity and bullet grooves that can scrape burned and unburned powder into the charge hole, especially if the grooves are greased. An oversized ball readily cuts a nice lead ring. An elongated oversized conical cannot cut a neat ring, but rather partially cuts a ring and swages itself into the charge hole. It's all probability and statistics as to how chain fires happen, but the mechanics are pretty simple. Rear chain fires could happen if an incandescent ember bounced around several 90 deg turns into a nipple recess and got under the cap skirt. Not likely but possible. Incandescent gas expands toward low pressure. Both embers and gas molecules obey Newton's laws. Upsets at the chamber mouth are another matter. A ball or conical bullet backing out exposes powder, possibly several charge holes at once. A loose projectile not aligned with the barrel also cannot be accelerated like a normal on, explaining why revolvers and their careless loaders can survive a chain fire as the bullets plop on the ground short of target. Any cause of chain fires is theoretically possible, but physics and probability favor front of cylinder causes, and conicals slightly increase those odds.