Is excess powder really blown out?

[Black Hand]

I'm going to say yes, sort of. The jet of gas would still push on the ball for a few inches, but as the gas expands it loses pressure without the barrel to contain it. I don't think it would increase the velocity any because of the increase in drag, and the overall pressure drop. However it could deflect the ball and this we can test

I wonder how much this would affect a projectile traveling around 1000fps (or thereabouts)? Differential gas pressures at the muzzle/crown due to wear or damage might be more significant.

 

[Carbon 6]

IMO: Excessive powder burns outside the barrel. Have someone fire the gun at night. If the muzzle flare is longer than 18-24 inches the charge is excessive.

How did you arrive at 18-24 inches ? Is it just an estimation ?

That also explains the amount of grass fires that get stomped out in front of the firing lines at a line shoot.

Every fire I have seen was caused by a patch, but I'm not discounting the possibility of molten potassium , hot cinders, ash etc. starting a fire. Just never seen it happen.

One of the ingredients in black powder is charcoal. Charcoal can burn in a low oxygen environment by gasification. This is what it does in the barrel. When exposed to oxygen outside the barrel it burns like one would normally think of charcoal burning, as a hot ember. I would think the charcoal would be ground to fine to make the journey from barrel to ground without being extinguished, but anything is possible.

 

[Carbon 6]

I wonder how much this would affect a projectile traveling around 1000fps (or thereabouts)? .

Negligible I think.

 

[RHensley]

No. Once the ball exits, anything happening in the barrel should/would have no effect.

Ok. Now if we reduce the powder until there's no flame out the barrel then there should be no effect on feet per second of the ball there for no effect on accuracy. That is if I'm understanding this. Some day I would like to shoot through a chronograph (I think that's right name for it) to see how fast my round ball is going. I shoot both 45 and 54 round ball. the 54 I use 100 grains 2F and the 45 I use 70 grains 3F. both have a pretty good flame out the muzzle and considerable amount of smoke. Now shooting at 100yds there is a difference in 100 and 80 grains of 2F in the 54.

 

[Carbon 6]

Ok. Now if we reduce the powder until there's no flame out the barrel .

Is that possible ?
I have fired caps in the dark and they even shoot flame out the barrel, Takes a good eye to see it, but it's there.

 

[RHensley]

Is that possible ?
I have fired caps in the dark and they even shoot flame out the barrel, Takes a good eye to see it, but it's there.

Like I said this has always puzzled me. I have always been told by people that should know that black powder burns and modern powder explodes. I've never really understood that.

 

[Okie Hog]

It is well proven that excess powder will NOT be burnt and will exit the muzzle.

OK. Prove it.

 

[Artificer]

When the muzzle face is not perpendicular to the bore, the escaping propellant gas will cause the projectile to be sent off slightly from the alignment of the bore just as it begins to leave the muzzle. This is most well known to the smoothbore shooters on this forum as sometimes they regulate barrels that way.

Re-cutting rifled bore crowns with a piloted precision chamfering tool to restore accuracy is less well known to the general public, but this is also why it is done in some muzzle loading shooting disciplines like the NSSA and USIMLT.

Gus

P.S. A rifled barrel that was/is eroded too much at the muzzle was often cut off around an inch or so in the past and is still sometimes done today, then the barrel face turned/filed perpendicular to the bore and crowned to restore accuracy. That or if there was too much erosion, the barrel was freshened. Something often mentioned in period literature. Today we have another option to get the barrel lined.

 

[Artificer]

It's getting so anyone with a plain old-fashioned sense of curiosity about how things work is in a persecuted minority around here.

How boring.

Spence

Though I don't intend to go OT and into a discussion on different grain sizes for priming powder, this reminds me a little of the fact that until forum member Pletch did much of his scientific testing, we did not know how fast different grain sizes burned in the pan. Many, if not most of us in the 60's and 70's just shot 4fg because we thought it burned enough faster, that it was commonly used in all flintlock guns. When Pletch came along, we learned the difference in time the different grain sizes burned, would not be recognizable to the human senses, though in some locks the 4fg powder still seems to work better.

However, Pletch's testing also informed us why most of the shooters in the period did not bother with a smaller grain size for the priming pan. His testing may also have had a beneficial effect in finding out coarser powder in the pan doesn't turn to a muddy slurry in the pan as fast when it is raining or snowing.

The link I provided earlier is the only one I know of where someone actually used scientific methods and equipment to test how fast the powder burns inside and outside the barrel. That doesn't mean someone else hasn't tested it, it is just the only one I have run across that is easily accessible to the general public.

Gus

 

[Britsmoothy]

Zonie mentioned a diesel engine earlier.
He missed an important aspect out of his brilliant example!
A diesel engine ejects carbon particles.
Black powder has a high carbon content and thus ejects carbon particles!

There, done, finished. Night night zzzzzzz

 

[smo]

 

[zimmerstutzen]

As I already stated - Accuracy & precision are my standards (I don't keep stuffing powder in my gun because after a certain point, accuracy & precision go down the crapper and I've NEVER stated velocity or power were my goals) and meat in the freezer is the desired outcome. I don't weigh each ball, the patch goes on the end of the barrel with no special effort to make certain it is absolutely centered and I fill my measure to approximately the same spot (because a few grains either way wouldn't make much of a difference anyway). I have meat in my freezer and I think I'll have some tonight...

Proof that accuracy is not your goal from your own words. Just about anybody can kill something. Shooting a 10 shot group at 100 yards that can be covered with a quarter is a slightly different definition of accuracy and precision.

 

[Black Hand]

Proof that accuracy is not your goal from your own words. Just about anybody can kill something. Shooting a 10 shot group at 100 yards that can be covered with a quarter is a slightly different definition of accuracy and precision.

According to you - stating that accuracy and precision are my goals means that accuracy and precision are not my goals...because I hunt and am not hung up on weighing things to the nanogram? That's just a little/lot ridiculous...
Please stop twisting my words and listen to what they say rather than what YOU want them to say.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

No. Once the ball exits, anything happening in the barrel should/would have no effect.

Actually wrong. for that first little distance outside the barrel, while the pressure is still pushing out faster than the ball is moving, it would still be pushing the ball. Simple test set an inflated balloon on the palm of your hand. have your palm about a foot from your face. Blow at the balloon. It moved didn't it?

 

[Black Hand]

Actually wrong. for that first little distance outside the barrel, while the pressure is still pushing out faster than the ball is moving, it would still be pushing the ball. Simple test set an inflated balloon on the palm of your hand. have your palm about a foot from your face. Blow at the balloon. It moved didn't it?

Is the balloon moving at better than 1000fps? Nope....
Some math:
1/2 second - 500 feet
1/4 second - 250 feet
1/8 second - 125 feet
1/16 second - 62.5 feet
1/32 second - 31.25 feet
How far does the pressure wave extend? Seriously doubt even 31.25 feet...

 

[Carbon 6]

Actually wrong. for that first little distance outside the barrel, while the pressure is still pushing out faster than the ball is moving, it would still be pushing the ball. Simple test set an inflated balloon on the palm of your hand. have your palm about a foot from your face. Blow at the balloon. It moved didn't it?

Your analogy doesn't take into account the difference in mass and velocity. The balloon is extremely light almost the same weight as the air you are pushing it with. and the balloon is at a resting state.

Whereas the muzzleloader ball is traveling at the near the speed as the gas. and is way heavier. If you look at high speed photos, the gas blows past the ball, it still has velocity but is rapidly losing pressure. The ball overtakes the gas quite quickly. There is little affect.

 

[Carbon 6]

Is the balloon moving at better than 1000fps? Nope....

Took me longer to write my response but I see we were thinking the same.

 

[Black Hand]

Your description is a little more detailed.
Now, I'd be more impressed if he blew on a lead ball in the palm of his hand about a foot away and got it to move at all. At least that would be a more accurate test but still wildly inadequate because a human lung could not generate the pressure/velocity needed nor is the pressure contained or especially directional. Another consideration would be density - the density of the heated gas is far less than that of the air and should rapidly slow upon exiting the barrel.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Though I don't intend to go OT and into a discussion on different grain sizes for priming powder, this reminds me a little of the fact that until forum member Pletch did much of his scientific testing, we did not know how fast different grain sizes burned in the pan. Many, if not most of us in the 60's and 70's just shot 4fg because we thought it burned enough faster, that it was commonly used in all flintlock guns. When Pletch came along, we learned the difference in time the different grain sizes burned, would not be recognizable to the human senses, though in some locks the 4fg powder still seems to work better.

However, Pletch's testing also informed us why most of the shooters in the period did not bother with a smaller grain size for the priming pan. His testing may also have had a beneficial effect in finding out coarser powder in the pan doesn't turn to a muddy slurry in the pan as fast when it is raining or snowing.

The link I provided earlier is the only one I know of where someone actually used scientific methods and equipment to test how fast the powder burns inside and outside the barrel. That doesn't mean someone else hasn't tested it, it is just the only one I have run across that is easily accessible to the general public.

Gus

One question that remained about Pletch's tests. He touched the powder off with a single hot wire. When my flint falls against the frizzen, it throws a line of sparks almost as wide as the flint into the pan at relatively the same time. It would seem that multiple points of ignition of the primer may speed things up. I asked Pletch about whether that would affect the speed of ignition and he did not have an answer at that time. As for whether something is imperceptible to humans, some humans can't see the color red, some can distinguish between far more shades of colors than the average human. Some can't hear sounds below a certain decibel range, or below a certain frequency ( my problem), yet others can hear far more than the average human. The same is true for hearing and separating rapidly occurring events. Watching something, the most humans can not see separate frames flashing faster than 16 frames per second. A few can. Some people have an amazing ability to hear separate rapidly occurring noises. Some telegraph operators for instance could interpret the code multiple times faster than the average telegrapher could tap the key. Now whether a human could hear the difference in speed of ignition when using one primer grade over another, I suspect some can.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Your analogy doesn't take into account the difference in mass and velocity. The balloon is extremely light almost the same weight as the air you are pushing it with. and the balloon is at a resting state.

Whereas the muzzleloader ball is traveling at the near the speed as the gas. and is way heavier. If you look at high speed photos, the gas blows past the ball, it still has velocity but is rapidly losing pressure. The ball overtakes the gas quite quickly. There is little affect.

But there is affect. I said only during that little distance that the pressure is still moving faster than the ball.