Only MLer's i have owned that could even be considered Inline are BP revolvers and a Navy Arms side by side .12 ga caplock.
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iS IT A Traditional RIFLE ?
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RedFeather
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ss1 said:
Now, see what you have done? Stirred up the hornets' nest. (Quick, while they are out grab some of that nest for wadding!!!) :grin:
Guess this Firestorm is kind of like the lady who took a gent home for the evening. She removed her padded top, padded bottom, false eyelashes, long blonde wig, then plopped her teeth into a tumbler. At that he jumped out the window and ran away, leaving her to cry "Where are all the REAL men????" :haha:
arcticap
54 Cal.
To me, the "tradition" of muzzle loading means something entirely different than any particular time period or type of rifle in the primitive sense. It had a beginning but not an ending, as it marches forward through time. So the definition of a traditional muzzle loading rifle is not stagnant but dynamic. To me, every muzzle loader is part of the overall muzzle loading tradition, therefore by definition every muzzle loader is traditional. It all a matter of recognizing the degree of similarity. While some people might only define what's traditional as a matchlock, I don't. It's sort of like baseball, the rules, equipment and fields of play have changed over the years, but every baseball game is still played in the true tradition of the sport. So, since the Firestorm is part of the muzzle loading tradition, then in essence, it's representative of a traditional muzzle loader too.
I reminds me of the adage, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck."
I reminds me of the adage, "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck."
" therefore by definition every muzzle loader is traditional."
I cannot believe I actually read that in print and it was not signed by Toby...
The ML era had an end according to any gun historian and a rebirth of sorts for recreational purposes, the term tradtional does indeed denote a time period when ML guns were quite different from modern guns even those which load from the front.....perhaps a poll would shed some light on the forums overall view on this, I suspect a rather liberal outcome based on day to day postings.
I cannot believe I actually read that in print and it was not signed by Toby...
The ML era had an end according to any gun historian and a rebirth of sorts for recreational purposes, the term tradtional does indeed denote a time period when ML guns were quite different from modern guns even those which load from the front.....perhaps a poll would shed some light on the forums overall view on this, I suspect a rather liberal outcome based on day to day postings.
ss1 said:
A Ford car is not a classic or vintage just because it has four wheels. Materials and styling determine it as much as age.
The Firestorm uses a flintlock mechanism with traditional styling; at least on the exterior. If someone wants to fire a patched round ball in it I'll listen to his hunting and shooting exploits all day and be happy for him.
I agree Stumpy, but feed it modern bullets, pellets and mount a modern scope and I think Rip Van Winkle has woken up in the present.... but as for this forum the gun itself should be "talkable"and I don't think there is a ban on talking about modern bullets or scopes...but we gotta think hard about calling them "traditional" I often think there is far to much emphasis on attatching that term to a gun or type of gear given the obvious modern influences that are present in many cases.
tg said:
Agreed. We can talk about them because they aren't in-lines, but they are not "traditional" either. I doubt they would be used for reenacting, so they are in kind of a limbo category. The missing link between traditional and modern? :winking:
barebackjack
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Wait a tick....you know theres another 10% society...right?
I get the hebee jeebees when they have their 10% week. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
I get the hebee jeebees when they have their 10% week. :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
Pittsburghunter
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You can shoot it as a traditional rifle if you want to you are not limited to the pellet powder in fact I bet it will work better with real black powder.
I for one actually like the basic design of the rifle but would never buy one because I like wood stocked and blued steel rifles. (I also like the fine browning I have seen on this site) The only problem I can think of with it is the twist may be too fast for a roundball.
Squire Robins post on the Baker Rifle has me thinking that the Firestorm should shoot roundball fine as well. They say the Baker has a 1:30 twist.
So that just leaves me problems with the stock because a stainless can look like a barrel left in the white.
As stated I don't really like guns with plastic stocks and only own a couple.
Another point is and I don't bring it up often is I proudly own some very nice Inlines and I do not bring it up on this site I talk about them on others that cater to that type of shooting.
I like all weapons big and small and use this site to talk about my traditional ones which I think your rifle can fit into... Sort of.
I for one actually like the basic design of the rifle but would never buy one because I like wood stocked and blued steel rifles. (I also like the fine browning I have seen on this site) The only problem I can think of with it is the twist may be too fast for a roundball.
Squire Robins post on the Baker Rifle has me thinking that the Firestorm should shoot roundball fine as well. They say the Baker has a 1:30 twist.
So that just leaves me problems with the stock because a stainless can look like a barrel left in the white.
As stated I don't really like guns with plastic stocks and only own a couple.
Another point is and I don't bring it up often is I proudly own some very nice Inlines and I do not bring it up on this site I talk about them on others that cater to that type of shooting.
I like all weapons big and small and use this site to talk about my traditional ones which I think your rifle can fit into... Sort of.
arcticap
54 Cal.
Since it's a plastic and stainless steel flintlock, why wouldn't the more common and practical hunter/shooter's definition of what is "traditional" be applied here rather than the historical/reenacting pre-1840's definition?
After all, this rifle is probably legal to use in every traditional muzzle loader hunting season in the nation.
To use the pre-1840's definition belittles the topic as sure folly. :hmm:
After all, this rifle is probably legal to use in every traditional muzzle loader hunting season in the nation.
To use the pre-1840's definition belittles the topic as sure folly. :hmm:
paulvallandigham
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You have a point. This is mostly a question of semantics. However, we see a difference between a Muzzle loading rifle, and a " Traditional Muzzle Loading Rifle ". You plastic and Stainless steel wondergun is a Muzzle loader- NO doubtabout that - but it is not a Traditional Muzzle loading Rifle.
That distinction serves a good purpose, particularly to new shooters who get their information about news and history off the TV, rather than out of books, and may actually think your " Wondergun " is the exact same kind of gun used by Daniel Boone! I did not realize how much we were living in the age of plastics until many years ago, when doing a live fire demonstration, dressed in buckskins. a little boy from Chicago came up, and was touching and feeling everything in his reach. Probably 5 years old, his mother kept trying to answer his questions, " What's this, momma?" " Is It Real?", and pointing to various items of clothing and gear made of various kinds of animal skins. His mother was shocked when a friend's possible bag was cloaked in Beaver skin with the fur left on over the flap. She told her boy, " Remember how that feels. Those animals are extinct!" We quickly corrected her knowledge of history- she thought that " trapped out " meant that all the animals were killed - and pointed her to the nearest location where she could find a tree cut down by our local beaver population- about 250 feet from where she was standing! We also told her directions to the North end of the lake where she could view a beaver lodge from a bridge she would have to cross on her way back to town. Her boy was living in a world of synthetics, and plastics, and just did not have access to much of anything that was " real ".
Traditional Muzzleloading rifles are " Real " in that they are historically correct firearms, whether original firearms, or replicas. That is reason enough to maintain a distinction between what we describe as " tradtional ", and these non-traditional muzzle loaders.
That distinction serves a good purpose, particularly to new shooters who get their information about news and history off the TV, rather than out of books, and may actually think your " Wondergun " is the exact same kind of gun used by Daniel Boone! I did not realize how much we were living in the age of plastics until many years ago, when doing a live fire demonstration, dressed in buckskins. a little boy from Chicago came up, and was touching and feeling everything in his reach. Probably 5 years old, his mother kept trying to answer his questions, " What's this, momma?" " Is It Real?", and pointing to various items of clothing and gear made of various kinds of animal skins. His mother was shocked when a friend's possible bag was cloaked in Beaver skin with the fur left on over the flap. She told her boy, " Remember how that feels. Those animals are extinct!" We quickly corrected her knowledge of history- she thought that " trapped out " meant that all the animals were killed - and pointed her to the nearest location where she could find a tree cut down by our local beaver population- about 250 feet from where she was standing! We also told her directions to the North end of the lake where she could view a beaver lodge from a bridge she would have to cross on her way back to town. Her boy was living in a world of synthetics, and plastics, and just did not have access to much of anything that was " real ".
Traditional Muzzleloading rifles are " Real " in that they are historically correct firearms, whether original firearms, or replicas. That is reason enough to maintain a distinction between what we describe as " tradtional ", and these non-traditional muzzle loaders.
I don't understand what is happening. This is the Traditional Muzzleloader forum. It is not the I am proud to own inlines forum. It is not the plastic and stainless forum either. The gun in question is a high end modern gun designed to let weekenders hunt without learning about muzzleloading. To come to the Traditional forum and argue that a traditional requirement here is wrong is just plain old trolling. If you disagree with the rules here, start a thread with the moderators about the rules in the appropriate forum. Some one asked about this modern gun, and Claude sanctioned the discussion. I would not have because I expected just what is happening, but this is Claude's house. When it causes people here to attack the actual tradition this place was created to celebrate, a line has been reached. It is time to lock this one Claude, IMHO.
I'm a 1%-er.
I own one. But have never fired one. And don't intend to. Not against it. Just not interested.
The one I own is a shotgun that I got as a part of a trade deal with a buddy of mine. I definitely got the best side of the trade but now I gotta figger out where to sell/trade a gun that I don't want to shoot... :hmm: No interest at the local gunshop. Maybe I didn't get the best end of the trade...
I did get my buddy interested in traditional type MLs. He really wants my Crockett. Got another deal worked out for when it warms up a little. He gets the Crockett but he has to take a big old Elm tree with it. :thumbsup:
I own one. But have never fired one. And don't intend to. Not against it. Just not interested.
The one I own is a shotgun that I got as a part of a trade deal with a buddy of mine. I definitely got the best side of the trade but now I gotta figger out where to sell/trade a gun that I don't want to shoot... :hmm: No interest at the local gunshop. Maybe I didn't get the best end of the trade...
I did get my buddy interested in traditional type MLs. He really wants my Crockett. Got another deal worked out for when it warms up a little. He gets the Crockett but he has to take a big old Elm tree with it. :thumbsup:
RedFeather
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People should not be ashamed of what they own or be made to be. Heck, I've seen the odd post about center fires on airgun forums and, while off-topic, they don't cause an uproar. Out of place here? Yes, but nothing to go to war over.
Aside from the lock and, maybe, the barrel, the Firestorm isn't original in the sense that I've come to understand what this forum is about. Then again, long threads on the myriad uses of teflon, synthetic ramrods, cold browning solutions and fast twist replacement barrels suggest there is some room for inclusion. That it has a plastic stock, well, there are a lot of cheaper "traditional" muzzle loaders that share that and they have been discussed here, along with the T/C Scout and very old models like the Tingle target pistol, both of the dread in-line configuration. They kind of look "traditional" but are really less so than a Firestorm.
Maybe it would be interesting to re-stock a Firestorm and see how it turns out? My guess is it would not then offend too many here.
Aside from the lock and, maybe, the barrel, the Firestorm isn't original in the sense that I've come to understand what this forum is about. Then again, long threads on the myriad uses of teflon, synthetic ramrods, cold browning solutions and fast twist replacement barrels suggest there is some room for inclusion. That it has a plastic stock, well, there are a lot of cheaper "traditional" muzzle loaders that share that and they have been discussed here, along with the T/C Scout and very old models like the Tingle target pistol, both of the dread in-line configuration. They kind of look "traditional" but are really less so than a Firestorm.
Maybe it would be interesting to re-stock a Firestorm and see how it turns out? My guess is it would not then offend too many here.
Something that occured to me is, if the durable plastics and stainless steal were available ~160 years ago, wouldn't the mountain men and pioneers have used them to make firearms? If I went back in time, I probably would want to take one of these rifles with me. Anything I need to shoot it would be available, and I would have the most reliable firearm around. That doesn't mean that it is a "traditional" muzzleloader, but I definitely wouldn't count it in the same group as the inlines either.
Just a few thoughts.
D
Just a few thoughts.
D
RedFeather
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wolfe28 said:
Posilutely, absotively! And you would have seen a lot more patch boxes on those Hawkens, as well.....
....for the cell phones, of course! :grin:
Except that misses the whole point...that's like saying it they had airplanes they would have used them...well of course they would...but that's completely opposite the point.wolfe28 said:
People's interest in doing some of the things the way the settlers did them "back in the day" IS the point...the point it NOT to try and improve upon what they used...that's already been done...just grab a Remingtom 700/.30-06 and you're all set...no...I want to grab a wood and metal Flintlock that at least SOMEWHAT resembles something from that era...not something plastic.
:thumbsup:
