Is there a difference between a St. Louis Hawken and a Hawken?

[Sparkitoff]

In particular, my interest is with the lower priced factory rifles like the CVA and Traditions. I see some with brass, set triggers and crescent butt that are marked "Hawken". Then what I see appears to be a twin - but is marked "St. Louis Hawken". What's the difference?


Now second part of my question - outside of the lower priced factory rifles, is there a difference in the rifles such named "Hawken" and "St. Louis Hawken".

 

[NorthFork]

Marketing

 

[Boomer]

^^ This!

There will be some that will try to tell you that Hawken had iron furniture & & St Louis Hawken had brass but that aint so.

What specifically are you asking about CVA? I have owned a few & might be able to give additional info.

 

[necchi]

Well CVA and Traditions are two different companies that import from the same Spanish manufacturer (Ardesa) and because of naming/patent rights they couldn't use the exact same thing at the same time.
Back in the day;
CVA had the Hawken with a 1-48 twist,, so Traditions came out with the St. Louis Hawken with a 1-60 twist
CVA has now devoted itself to all in-line ML's so Traditions has it's options wide open.

Historically, The Hawkens brothers did move shop,, I don't know the whole story,, one quit or died and I think it was Sam that ended up in St. Louis.

 

[Sparkitoff]

In regard to CVA, I was just curious. I have a .54 marked "HAWKEN" with a 1:60" ROT 15/16th. It is a good shooter. Most of the rifles I see (for sale or at a show) say "St. Louis Hawken", but they look identical. There is one such rifle on TOTW for sale right now. So I'm just curious if there was a specific difference. That got me to thinking about the names in general.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

“Hawken” is the single most *******ized term in all of traditional muzzleloading.

It is purely for marketing, and means NOTHING from brand to brand. Ignore the name and buy the rifle with features you like.

 

[Boomer]

Many of the old CVAs were very fine shooters! I used to have a CVA 45cal Kentucky rifle that would very nearly stack the bullets at 50yds shooting the dearly departed Speer Ball-ets. It did really well with a PRB as well but it was just crazy accurate with those ballets.
As a pastime I would sit on my back deck sipping a cold one & knock off the chipmunks in my garden.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
As others have hinted at, you are confused between real history and modern marketing of guns that have almost nothing in common with historical Hawken rifles except they have barrels and locks and load from the muzzle. Jacob Hawken opened a gun shop in St. Louis around 1815. His brother joined him in 1822. Jacob died in 1849 and Sam moved from St. Louis in 1859 opening a gun shop in Denver in 1860. He hands over the shop in Denver to his son William in 1861 and retires back in St. Louis. The Hawken brothers developed a fairly distinct rifle useful to those trapping and hunting in the western territories. However, the majority of rifles carried by western trappers, hunters, and pioneers were not Hawkens. They were just one component of the gun trade that got a lot of good press in modern times and for which the name was stolen and used for a lot of cheap modern knock offs. There is one modern company that markets a "St. Louis Hawken" that has little in common with any rifles made by Sam and Jake in St. Louis. However, some like the Hawken Shop and Don Stith make kits and finished guns that are good copies and the kits sold by Track of the Wolf are not too bad if you don't look too closely at details. The irony for many is that the iconic Hawken half stocked rifle was a product of the 1840s-1860s when the fur trade and heyday of the mountain men was over. The heyday of the fur companies was during the 1820s and the last big rendezvous was in 1840.

dave

 

[Sparkitoff]

I do appreciate the history. I am not confusing anything. I am asking about the difference in modern production rifles with such names on them. So far from what I am getting it seems the same exact specifications may have been marked "Hawken" or "St. Louis Hawken". If anyone knows a difference between the two such marked rifles, that is what I would like to know. Thanks

 

[burlesontom]

I have one sold as a kit or completed rifle by Bass Pro many years ago called the "Springfield Hawken" many years ago. I bought the kit for a whole $105.00 back in the 1990s. The completed rifle was $135.00 If you look on Muzzle-Loaders. com site they are still offered for sale for around $300.00 for the rifle. Crazy for such a simple gun. The Traditions Prarie Hawken rifle seems to come closest to the rifles built by Sam and Jake and even that is a real stretch.

Mine is marked as being 1/66. I have measured it a couple of times and keep coming up with a 1/48 twist. Anyway it shoots very well. These Spanish made gun are at best entry level guns that used to be reasonably price for what they are. And to there credit everyone I have ever owned or shot had very smooth bores and shot way better than the price would have you expect.

I used to see them in Pawn Shops for $50 or so and would buy them and clean them up and resale them for a profit. I never see them now. Thats a shame.

 

[necchi]

Thank you.

 

[Donny]

what is Muzzle-Loaders. com ?

can't find them.

 

[burlesontom]

Never mind. Can't get it to work. :idunno:

 

[boker]

I have read the majority of authentic Hawken rifles were 1:48 twist. Is this true?

 

[Grenadier1758]

Unless it was a Hawken marked shotgun, the rifling would be 1 in 48. The rifling bench used by Sam and Jake Hawken and John Gemmer had only one twist, 1 in 48.

Baird's books, Don Stith and Bob Browner (makers of Hawken Replica Rifles) have all confirmed the 1 in 48 twist rate.

 

[jimirwin]

Howdy! Jim Irwin here. Given the moniker "Cannonball" in California. Have been a Hawken nut since 1974, when, while looking to buy a TC "Hawken", I chanced upon The Longrifle Shop in Richardson, Texas. In the wall I saw end instantly fell in love/lust with the authentic Hawken Rocky Mountain rifle. I paid more for a kit of parts and semi-shaped plain walnut stock than I would have for a completed TC new in the box. Parts from Cherry Corners were pretty nearly perfect replicas of the original. Cherry Corners sold to Ithaca, which sold to Navy Arms, which sold to Uberti/Western Arms. Anyways the same basic kit in several names stayed around a long time, and still survives. In 1978 I was approached to make a Hawken using a kit of parts from The Hawken Shop in St Louis. Art Ressel had bought the old Hawken show "lock, stock, and barrel" with surviving tooling, patterns and who knows what else and was producing completely authentic parts, with barrels by Bill Large, and with a tight tiger striped maple stock. Built it for the guy, who came and shot with us for a while, then dropped out. I called him to check on him and he offered me the gun for what he had in it. It is now a sacred family heirloom.

Point i that a true Hawken is a thing of rare beauty all unto itself. I find it a shame that so many importers/makers chose to sully the name Hawken using it on what they produced, even though many are well enough made and shoot well enough. The closest thing to true is the Lyman Great Plains rifle design. Browning had one for a while that was pretty close, too.

Yes, I am a Hawken biggot!

I have held/fondled/ embraced a few originals, too. Nothing else quite like them!

Jim Irwin
aka Cannonball