Issue with Double Set and Siler Lock

[Ray-Vigo]

I've been working on a gun lately. I've noticed a funny issue with the lock and trigger-- when on full cock and using ONLY the trigger (no set) the trigger gives a regular, full percussion hammer drop. But when the set is used, pulling the trigger causes the hammer to drop from full to half cock and suddenly stop there. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[mckutzy]

this happens if the fly is out of the lock, u might have been lost if it had been taken apart. the fly helps the sear ride over the halfcock position and let it fall compleatly forward.

 

[Birddog6]

Or the lock was built incorrectly & the fly is too short. Or the fly is in backwards (on a L&R) Or if the fly is soft & has a notch worn in it & the hammer is catching & digging in on the notch.
:wink:

 

[mr.flintlock]

Definately sounds like a fly problem.

 

[MSW]

ayup, what Birddog said about the L&Rs... they're really easy to misassemble (the position of the flye is really counterintuitive) ... and then, you have to take the whole thing apart and start over again... kinda makes you wish you'd paid closer attention in the first place...

the Siler design, however, is much more forgiving- there's only one way to install the litle bugger... that is, after you've chased it across the floor, extracted it from one of the numerous dustbunnies that inhabit the floor of your shop, stick it in the tiny little hole, and put the lock together.

for true, what you describe is a classic symptom of a missing or malfunctioning flye. i would recommend that you order a few from Track of the Wolf or any other reliable dealer... i have two on hand, just to confound Murphy. now that i have spares, i haven't had to take the lock apart, and i haven't lost a flye in years, before that, however.... :redface: :cursing: :redface:

 

[Ray-Vigo]

Alright, so the fly issue holds true even though the issue only takes place when using the set? I can pull the trigger plain, without the set and there are no issues falling from full. When I use the set, pulling the hair goes down from full to half.

 

[paulvallandigham]

"When I use the set, pulling the hair goes down from full to half. "

Sorry, but can you try that again??? I don't know what "pulling the hair" means.

The FLY in a lock works every time you pull the trigger on the gun at full cock. It doesn't matter if you first set the trigger, or don't use the set trigger. The Fly simply allows the sear to rotate OVER the half-cock notch as the hammer is falling when the gun is fired. The Fly moves up and out of the way, as the hammer is cocked, to allow you to let the sear nose enter the half cock notch. This movement occurs with and with out the trigger "set" being used. A trigger "set", or " set trigger", only works on the trigger(s), not the tumbler or Fly. They are separate, and distinct parts and functions.

Now, YOU CAN only move the FLY out of the way to put the sear at half cock, by lowering the hammer all the way down, past the half cock notch, and then cocking the hammer slightly past it. If you cock the hammer back to full cock, the fly will fall back into its normal place, and block the sear from entering the half cock notch.

There should be a small "click" heard and sometimes felt when the FLY is moved back out of the way of the half cock notch, when the hammer is slowly cocked back. That "click" tells you that you can now lower the hammer into the half cock position. :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[Ray-Vigo]

The issue with the lock stopping at half from full takes place only when I use the set. When I just pull the trigger without using the set, it works-- falls from full right to the nipple. But if I use the set, pulling the trigger results in the hammer going from full and then stopping on half.

 

[ohio ramrod]

When the fly doesn't function. Pulling the trigger will hold the sear at an angle to clear the half cock position. But using the set trigger the "set" hammers the sear to release the full cock but there is no pressure on the sear to keep it clear of the half cock. Therefore the sear spring pushes the sear in to the half cock.. So it all comes down to a happy frog! :hmm: As the frog said:" Time is fun when you are having flys!" :haha: :haha:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Take the lock out of the gun, and check the fly. Make sure there is no grease, or dried oil behind it making it stick to the tumbler. It should move freely, in its slot. Its the one part of the lock that really does not benefit from being oiled.

From what you are describing, your gun is NOT firing when you use the set trigger. I don't know what is happening with it from your word description. You might call Chambers to ask what they think is going on, as they produce the Siler lock.
www.flintlocks.com/

 

[Zonie]

The difference in what is happening inside is the reason you can just pull the front trigger with the trigger "unset" and the lock works and using the set "hair" trigger when its set makes the lock not work.

When you just pull the front trigger without setting the rear set trigger your finger moves the trigger to the rear and it holds it there .

This causes the blade on the front trigger to move up and push the sear arm upward which disengages the nose of the sear from the full cock notch.
As the finger is keeping the trigger pulled, the nose of the sear is held away from the outside of the tumbler where the full and half cock notches are carved.

A gun that has only a single simple trigger does not have to have a lock with a fly in it to function.

When the rear set trigger is "set" and you release the front "hair" trigger a whole different series of things are happening inside the gun.

The spring loaded rear trigger is released by just touching the front trigger.
When it releases, the spring load causes the rear trigger to move forward and when it does the blade on the top of it slams into the sear arm.
This releases the nose of the sear from the full cock notch HOWEVER, as soon as this happens the sear spring shoves the nose of the sear back against the outside of the tumbler and holds it there.

Held against the outside of the now, rotating tumbler, if no fly is present, the nose has no option but to fall into the half cock notch and stop the rotation of the tumbler.

If a tiny "fly" is inserted into the tumbler at the half cock location, it is designed to block off the half cock notch when the hammer falls.

When the nose of the sear, which is riding against the outside of the tumbler now reaches the fly, the fly moves the nose of the sear out away from the half cock notch and forces it to 'jump over' the notch.
That allows the hammer to continue to fall to the fired position.

Hopefully you followed this and now understand why the fly is important if a "set trigger" is being used.

A word of caution here.
Do NOT try to fire the gun using the set trigger if the fly is not working or it is missing.
Doing so will easily break the small nose off off of the sear arm or break the half cock notch in the tumbler.
If either of these items breaks it will make the gun unsafe to shoot at the least and it could make the gun unshootable.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

Ah I see-- I'll stay away from the set for now then. I'll also have to take a closer look at the lock. I'm not keen on taking it all apart.

 

[Mincerz]

this is not a "fly" problem.

When it releases, the spring load causes the rear trigger to move forward and when it does the blade on the top of it slams into the sear arm.

blade on the top of your trigger slams too weak into the sear arm or your trigger is not installed correctly.

 

[D. Bowman]

The fly is designed for set trigger use if it is missing or broken the lock will stop at half cock.
(and possibly cause damage to the tumbler)

With single trigger use the fly is not usually needed.

most origional guns with single triggers dont have a fly. it just isnt needed.

 

[freeloader]

I had an LandR lock once that did not work worth a hoot, not the same problem as yours, so I sent it back to them. Real nice folks,they fixed er right up for me at no charge and had it back to me in a week. I am sure Chambers would be able to oblige you just the same.Sure beats pulling your hair out.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

I'll have to check into that, but this is a used gun with 2 previous owners. It's a lefty though and looks like it might be an older TVM Tennessee Poor Boy. It has a stock issue also I'm working out.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

Does anyone have a diagram or step by step instructions for taking the lock down to check/replace the fly?

 

[Zonie]

Follow this link http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...p?tid/246179/post/853534/fromsearch/1/#853534

It doesn't say too much about the fly but basically there are two different designs for a fly.

One of them has a fly with a little pin built into it. The pin fits into a small hole in the body of the tumbler. It is impossible to assemble this kind backwards.

The other design (L&R uses it) has a fly with a little hole in it. The hole fits over a pin that is in the tumbler.

It is very easy to install this type of fly backwards and if that is done the fly won't work.

If a lock has this type of fly in it, it is very important to draw a little sketch of the flys shape as it is installed. (It is usually more pointed on one side than the other).

If the fly doesn't work correctly with this kind of lock, remove the bridle and reverse the fly. Reassemble the bridle and try the fly again.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

With these instructions, along with some other instructions and a Siler diagram, I was able to fix the lock issue this afternoon. It took about 2-3 months to get the fly in (backordered)then I sort of left the project on the back burner due to other priorities.

Today I got to it, and it literally was a 15 minute job with the help of a spring vise and a good set of gun screwdrivers. The mechanism went together in such a way that it was pretty plain how the fly and parts went. The double set trigger system now works well. It fired fine on a test cap and was a pleasant surprise how easy it turned out to be.

 

[Birddog6]

Don't know who you ordered the fly from that it would take 2-3 months, but next time call Jim Chambers Flintlocks or Tip Curtis & you will have it in 2-3 days. (Hope you bought a extra one, as they have a tendency to come up missing at times :idunno: )

Glad you got it working OK. :thumbsup:

Keith Lisle