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Ithaca Hawken Rifle
- Thread starter Bruce M
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Doug Lykins
40 Cal.
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I remember them, gosh, maybe back in the '70s-'80s?? I doubt if they built these, not sure of the actual maker.
Navy Arms marketed them back in the '70s a very good reproduction. One model was the Santa Fe if I recall.
RedFeather
50 Cal.
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Ithaca started production and then Navy Arms bought them out. I think they are the same as the .53 SanteFe Hawken. Nice guns, too. The connection to Ithaca, NY was the company of that name.
They've gone through incarnations since the original Ithaca version...with as many names. It was Pedersoli who bought the design patents and now produces the same rifle under the names "Rocky Mountain" and "Missouri River" Hawkens. The early guns had the odd sized .53 caliber bores while the current crop are standard .50 or .54, depending on which version and what wood selection. The differences are minor and consist of walnut or maple and quality of work.
The bottom line is, if you found one "GET IT"
They are class, they are beautiful, they are not Traditions/CVA/ or other wanna-be rifles.
One of the best reproduction rifles made.
A custom rifle of the same would cost $1000's plus.
I hate to admit it, but they are even better than early GPR rifles.
Don't worry about the actual caliber .530, you can always find a mold, or somebody who sells .525 bullets.
Oh, forgot to mention, if you don't want it, send it to me, I will baby it
Fred
They are class, they are beautiful, they are not Traditions/CVA/ or other wanna-be rifles.
One of the best reproduction rifles made.
A custom rifle of the same would cost $1000's plus.
I hate to admit it, but they are even better than early GPR rifles.
Don't worry about the actual caliber .530, you can always find a mold, or somebody who sells .525 bullets.
Oh, forgot to mention, if you don't want it, send it to me, I will baby it
Fred
Ithaca bought Cherry Corners inventory and that is where the early rifles came from. I bought mine in about 1978 or so and still shoot it quite a bit. Navy Arms partnered with Ithaca for a time and then acquired the rights and when the American parts were gone the production went to Uberti. That is how I remember it anyway.
They were expensive when new, I think around $750. You could by a couple of TC rifles for that. John Baird wrote the instruction manual. They are round ball guns and other than the straight barrel are very good copies of the originals.
They were expensive when new, I think around $750. You could by a couple of TC rifles for that. John Baird wrote the instruction manual. They are round ball guns and other than the straight barrel are very good copies of the originals.
Strawstalker/NM
Strawstalker CO & NM
The Santa Fe Hawken is not the same rifle. The Santa Fe was built in Santa Fe, NM by Western Arms. They both have the same style, are both great rifles. I have owned both and still own two Santa Fe's. Buy them when you see them!
The Strawstalker behind enemy lines in liberal Colorado.
The Strawstalker behind enemy lines in liberal Colorado.
Strawstalker/NM
Strawstalker CO & NM
Actually - Allen Arms Corp was partners with Uberti on the rifle. Their partnership was Western Arms. Allen Arms had a production facility and store in Santa Fe, NM. Uberti made the breeches, locks and barrels - and at the time I purchased - Allen Arms provided the other small parts and assembled the rifles in Santa Fe. Western Arms sold two grades - the first was the S. Hawken which sold for $295.00 and the second a J.& S. Hawken which sold for $1,000.00 (very, very nice, but a little too pricey). Both grade rifles had .53 Cal bores at used .526 balls. I purchased four of the S. Hawken rifles from them around 1980 when I lived in Albuquerque, NM.
FYI: In looking back through my old Buckskin Reports from the day, there are adds for both - the Ithaca, Oct/77 Buckskin Report, page #13 and the Western Arms Santa Fe, Apr/79 Buckskin Report, page #65. Both rifles had (as I remember) several review articles written in the Buckskin Report during 1979 and 1980 time frame.
Your old Ithaca is still looking sharp. I still have two of the four Santa Fe's. My rendezvous rifle has been re-barreled once to 38" and .54 Cal to match my rendezvous pistol. My second one is almost new and has less than 150 balls shot downrange. It was actually my wife's second "go to" rifle.
IMO You can't do any better in semi-production Hawken rifles than the Ithaca or the Santa Fe. Both are great looking and outstanding shooters.
If your looking for a rendezvous rife and find either of these rifle in good shape - buy it. They are both selling for around $750.00, in my market, used in good shape, and around $850.00 if new.
The Strawstalker
FYI: In looking back through my old Buckskin Reports from the day, there are adds for both - the Ithaca, Oct/77 Buckskin Report, page #13 and the Western Arms Santa Fe, Apr/79 Buckskin Report, page #65. Both rifles had (as I remember) several review articles written in the Buckskin Report during 1979 and 1980 time frame.
Your old Ithaca is still looking sharp. I still have two of the four Santa Fe's. My rendezvous rifle has been re-barreled once to 38" and .54 Cal to match my rendezvous pistol. My second one is almost new and has less than 150 balls shot downrange. It was actually my wife's second "go to" rifle.
IMO You can't do any better in semi-production Hawken rifles than the Ithaca or the Santa Fe. Both are great looking and outstanding shooters.
If your looking for a rendezvous rife and find either of these rifle in good shape - buy it. They are both selling for around $750.00, in my market, used in good shape, and around $850.00 if new.
The Strawstalker
There's a barrel for sale on evilbay right now for one of these.
varsity07840
45 Cal.
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Wes/Tex said:
plmeek
40 Cal.
I hesitate to add this post as it is somewhat off topic and it may not add any clarifying information, but here goes...
Here are some advertisements that tend to support Strawstalker's comments on the Santa Fe Hawken, Leonard Allen, and Uberti.
This ad appeared in the October 1978 issue of Buckskin Report.
This next ad appeared in the February 1979 issue of the same magazine.
The ads are identical except one says Allen Firearms Co. and the other says Western Arms Corp. It appears that the company names were interchangeable at this time. In fact, if you look closer in the circle behind the Allen Firearms Co. banner, you will see it says Western Arms Corp. On the other ad it says Allen Firearms Co. in the circle behind the Western Arms Corp. banner. Both ads say "in cooperation with Aldo Uberti & Company" and show Uberti's trade mark. I don't know if this indicates that Uberti was in partnership with Allen in Western Arms or not, but there certainly was a close relationship.
At the bottom of the ads you will see the statement "Western Arms and Aldo Uberti are presently building a factory in Santa Fe, for the purpose of building fine firearms in the United States. Full production is expected in early 1979."
This next ad ran in the April 1979 issue of Buckskin Report. Note there is no mention of a factory in the US making these.
In November 1979 and February 1980, John Baird wrote columns about the Baird-Weber J&S Hawken rifles that Western Arms and Uberti were planning on producing in the US factory. In the first column, Baird specifically mentions that the sample he examined while visiting in Santa Fe was made in Italy. Something happened, and other than a the samples made in Italy, the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken never went into production.
IIRC, Western Arms Corp. got into legal trouble with Olin Industries over trade name infringement about this time.
By July of 1980, these ads were being run in Bucksin Report.
The copy in these ads would suggest that Western Arms Corp. had been dissolved and new companies set up to sell remaining inventory that bore the Western Arms Corp. markings.
The Santa Fe Hawken in my possession has Western Arms Corp over Santa Fe, NM stamped on the top flat. On an oblique flat it has the caliber stamp and serial number. On a side flat it has the A. Uberti C. Gardone V.T. Italy stamp and Italian proof marks. On the bottom flat is stamped "Black Powder Only - Made in Italy". The manufacture date code is AE, indicating it was made in 1979.
My interpretation of all of the above is that the plans that Allen and Uberti had to build a plant in the US did not come to fruition, possibly due to the litigation with Olin Industries or financial problems or both.
That said, I also have a Western Arms Corp. Jedediah Smith Commemorative Hawken that is marked on the tang "No. 91 of One Thousand". The barrel is also marked with serial number 562, .54 cal, Italian proof marks, and on the bottom flat, Uberti's trade mark and Black Powder Only. The date code in the proof marks are also AE indicating it was made in 1979. There is no "Made in Italy" stamp!
My Santa Fe Hawken and Jed Smith Commemorative Hawken rifles are essentially the same except for the barrel markings and some of the metal finishes. All of the parts of the rifles--barrel, rib, thimbles, lock, triggers, trigger guard, butt plate, nose cap, escutcheons, and stock--are exactly the same.
One possible explanation for the Jed Smith Commemorative markings and finish differences is that it was shipped from the Uberti factory in Italy to the US unfinished. Allen could then add the Commemorative stamps and numbering and put the final finish on metal parts and stock.
The conspiracy theorist in me makes me wonder if Olin Industries, which owned the license to build and market Winchester firearms at the time, was more concerned about Uberti getting a manufacturing foothold in the US than it was about the trade name infringement. Colt took similar legal action against American Western Arms when AWA and Armi San Marco merged in the 1990's. The end result was about the same in both cases.
Enough conspiracy theories.
To get back on topic, here is a picture of my Ithaca Hawken.
And for comparison, here is my Santa Fe Hawken.
They are very similar, but not exactly alike. The Ithaca has the Cherry Corners lock/hammer, breech and tang, triggers, guard, and butt plate.
The Santa Fe has a slightly different lock/hammer and breech snail. The triggers are different also. The stocks are similar, but have subtle differences.
What I always found interesting is that they both have walnut stocks, German silver escutcheons, and white metal nose caps--an aluminum alloy on the Ithaca and pewter on the Santa Fe. The rear sights are near identical, also.
From what I can tell, Ithaca started production about a year before Western Arms/Uberti. Did Allen send Uberti one of the first Ithaca Hawken rifles off the production line and have Uberti copy it?
Oops, I'm back on conspiracy theories.
Last comment, then I'll go away.
Stantdm is correct that Ithaca bought Cherry Corners (1976) then Navy Arms took over the Hawken line from Ithaca (around 1979) and started making the Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken with the same American made parts that Ithaca used. Navy Arms later started importing Uberti Hawken rifles and marked them Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken. These later rifles are essentially the same as the Santa Fe Hawken rifles. So there are two versions of the Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken out there--one American made and one Italian made.
Here are some advertisements that tend to support Strawstalker's comments on the Santa Fe Hawken, Leonard Allen, and Uberti.
This ad appeared in the October 1978 issue of Buckskin Report.
This next ad appeared in the February 1979 issue of the same magazine.
The ads are identical except one says Allen Firearms Co. and the other says Western Arms Corp. It appears that the company names were interchangeable at this time. In fact, if you look closer in the circle behind the Allen Firearms Co. banner, you will see it says Western Arms Corp. On the other ad it says Allen Firearms Co. in the circle behind the Western Arms Corp. banner. Both ads say "in cooperation with Aldo Uberti & Company" and show Uberti's trade mark. I don't know if this indicates that Uberti was in partnership with Allen in Western Arms or not, but there certainly was a close relationship.
At the bottom of the ads you will see the statement "Western Arms and Aldo Uberti are presently building a factory in Santa Fe, for the purpose of building fine firearms in the United States. Full production is expected in early 1979."
This next ad ran in the April 1979 issue of Buckskin Report. Note there is no mention of a factory in the US making these.
In November 1979 and February 1980, John Baird wrote columns about the Baird-Weber J&S Hawken rifles that Western Arms and Uberti were planning on producing in the US factory. In the first column, Baird specifically mentions that the sample he examined while visiting in Santa Fe was made in Italy. Something happened, and other than a the samples made in Italy, the Baird-Webber J&S Hawken never went into production.
IIRC, Western Arms Corp. got into legal trouble with Olin Industries over trade name infringement about this time.
By July of 1980, these ads were being run in Bucksin Report.
The copy in these ads would suggest that Western Arms Corp. had been dissolved and new companies set up to sell remaining inventory that bore the Western Arms Corp. markings.
The Santa Fe Hawken in my possession has Western Arms Corp over Santa Fe, NM stamped on the top flat. On an oblique flat it has the caliber stamp and serial number. On a side flat it has the A. Uberti C. Gardone V.T. Italy stamp and Italian proof marks. On the bottom flat is stamped "Black Powder Only - Made in Italy". The manufacture date code is AE, indicating it was made in 1979.
My interpretation of all of the above is that the plans that Allen and Uberti had to build a plant in the US did not come to fruition, possibly due to the litigation with Olin Industries or financial problems or both.
That said, I also have a Western Arms Corp. Jedediah Smith Commemorative Hawken that is marked on the tang "No. 91 of One Thousand". The barrel is also marked with serial number 562, .54 cal, Italian proof marks, and on the bottom flat, Uberti's trade mark and Black Powder Only. The date code in the proof marks are also AE indicating it was made in 1979. There is no "Made in Italy" stamp!
My Santa Fe Hawken and Jed Smith Commemorative Hawken rifles are essentially the same except for the barrel markings and some of the metal finishes. All of the parts of the rifles--barrel, rib, thimbles, lock, triggers, trigger guard, butt plate, nose cap, escutcheons, and stock--are exactly the same.
One possible explanation for the Jed Smith Commemorative markings and finish differences is that it was shipped from the Uberti factory in Italy to the US unfinished. Allen could then add the Commemorative stamps and numbering and put the final finish on metal parts and stock.
The conspiracy theorist in me makes me wonder if Olin Industries, which owned the license to build and market Winchester firearms at the time, was more concerned about Uberti getting a manufacturing foothold in the US than it was about the trade name infringement. Colt took similar legal action against American Western Arms when AWA and Armi San Marco merged in the 1990's. The end result was about the same in both cases.
Enough conspiracy theories.
To get back on topic, here is a picture of my Ithaca Hawken.
And for comparison, here is my Santa Fe Hawken.
They are very similar, but not exactly alike. The Ithaca has the Cherry Corners lock/hammer, breech and tang, triggers, guard, and butt plate.
The Santa Fe has a slightly different lock/hammer and breech snail. The triggers are different also. The stocks are similar, but have subtle differences.
What I always found interesting is that they both have walnut stocks, German silver escutcheons, and white metal nose caps--an aluminum alloy on the Ithaca and pewter on the Santa Fe. The rear sights are near identical, also.
From what I can tell, Ithaca started production about a year before Western Arms/Uberti. Did Allen send Uberti one of the first Ithaca Hawken rifles off the production line and have Uberti copy it?
Oops, I'm back on conspiracy theories.
Last comment, then I'll go away.
Stantdm is correct that Ithaca bought Cherry Corners (1976) then Navy Arms took over the Hawken line from Ithaca (around 1979) and started making the Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken with the same American made parts that Ithaca used. Navy Arms later started importing Uberti Hawken rifles and marked them Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken. These later rifles are essentially the same as the Santa Fe Hawken rifles. So there are two versions of the Navy Arms/Ithaca Hawken out there--one American made and one Italian made.
Terry York
32 Cal
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I have one to sell.The bottom line is, if you found one "GET IT"
They are class, they are beautiful, they are not Traditions/CVA/ or other wanna-be rifles.
One of the best reproduction rifles made.
A custom rifle of the same would cost $1000's plus.
I hate to admit it, but they are even better than early GPR rifles.
Don't worry about the actual caliber .530, you can always find a mold, or somebody who sells .525 bullets.
Oh, forgot to mention, if you don't want it, send it to me, I will baby it
Fred
Terry
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I have an Ithaca Hawkin but it is one made after they farmed them out to Uberti in Italy. I can't send pictures but it is just like a real Hawkin with a few differences but not very noticeable!
- Joined
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I bought the last two they had! I believe it was 1985 for 450.00 a piece. That was what the man I dealt with told me.
Here's a thread on an Allen Hawken I bought a few years ago which I still have .53 cal. and an excellent shooter
.https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/allen-hawken-rifle.132245/
.https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/allen-hawken-rifle.132245/
