It's not a group...it's so bad it's not even a shotgun pattern....I need help.

[shorthair]

They are supposed to be pure lead. The guy that gave them to me used them in his Enfield for N-SSA shooting.

Me thinks you got fibbed to.

 

[fireman1]

I have some of those red ones! They came with the undersized bullets.

I'm in Michigan so a bit far.....haha. There are a number of N-SSA and the other CW shooting group clubs around here. I need to get a hold of the closest couple teams and check them out.

 

[fireman1]

Me thinks you got fibbed to.

Naw.....they were free from a guy the shoots N-SSA. They just don't work with my rifle.

 

[fraungie]

I acquired a Euroarms 2 band Enfield a couple of years back. I finally got out shooting it in the last few days. As far as I know the rifle was unfired before I got it. At 50 yds it is all over the place. 6" high of the mark, next shot is 6" low of the mark. Most 8" right but then the last shot was right on. It was so bad that I didn't bother with pics.

The details.

I am using 55 grn of Pyrodex RS. Is this too light?

Bullet is a 2 groove design. Drops in teh barrel just past the muzzle and needs just a light push on the ramrod to seat it home.

I am shooting off a sandbag rest.

Screws are all tight.

Any input or thoughts would be appreciated since this is truly embarrassing.

I am sure someone will say use BP. Well given the circumstances in BP supply right now I hate to burn up what I have. Saving it for Flintlock shooting.

I believe euro arms is an importer not a manufacturer. I have an Antonio Zoli 2 band Zuove imported by Navy Arms. I tried 4 or 5 different miniballs and my results were the same as you described. It did not change the group no matter what load I used. Some of the bullets made a beautiful keyhole in the target. It even cut the grease grooves in the paper target. I replaced the sights still nothing changed. I was going to sell it for what I could get for it. Someone asked if I ever tried a patched round ball. I said I would try them as a last resort. What a difference. One hole groups at 25 yards. I could not believe what I was seeing. In reading and talking to others I found some of those guns are not rifled fast enough to support a conical bullet. Even though they are manufactured to look and shoot like an 1860 era rifle the twist is not correct. I still have the rifle and enjoy shooting round balls. It is a .58 caliber. Do we really need to shoot mini bullets? It shoots round balls fine any where between 50-90 grains of black powder or pyrodex RS. They all shoot satisfactory. Give the round balls a chance. Good luck.

 

[dave951]

In reading and talking to others I found some of those guns are not rifled fast enough to support a conical bullet. Even though they are manufactured to look and shoot like an 1860 era rifle the twist is not correct.

That's not quite correct. The issue you had is symptomatic of minies not sized correctly or made from too hard lead. I have yet to see a Zoli that can't be made to shoot really well with minies, but their bores are nearly always on the large side. I've even seen one that was .584 that shot very well with the right size minie.

Lots and lots of misinformation floating around on the net.

 

[hanshi]

The following comments here are really meant for the FWIW drawer, but here goes. I've talked about this more than once as have others on the forum, but I think it bears saying again. Way too much importance is sometimes given to the effect twist rate has on prb accuracy and even conical accuracy, though less so for the latter. The most critical factor concerning twist/accuracy is type of rifling and (especially) DEPTH of rifling. Minies need shallower grooves than prb in order spin and stabilize, of course, since even soft lead can't fill deep grooves as well as round-ball patches can.

I generally consider grooves of .006" in depth to be about the minimum for use with round ball; it isn't "carved in stone" as there can be overlap. All 1-48" barrels I've owned or fired exhibited good accuracy with prb but they had sufficient groove depth to hold patches. And caliber is usually not an issue. A .54 rifle 1-66" with .006" grooves that I've owned for many years is dead-on accurate with prb and charges of 3F from 60 grains to 100 grains. It's never been fired with minies but has been tested with solid base conicals. While not equal to the astonishing accuracy of prb the conicals tested were quite accurate enough for the same jobs. And guess what! Put a felt wad, etc, between powder and solid conical (or even maybe not) and often accuracy can be achieved in barrels with .010"-.012" rifling. Just saying.

 

[Slip6]

This is the absolute best I could get out of that bullet, and it wasn't consistent. I think the twist in my guns is better suited to a heavier, longer bullet. I know others who have had their barrels relined and they get this kind of accuracy at 100yds. The issue with a light bullet is it can easily be moved by wind.
View attachment 99636

Here's what a heavier bullet will do in the very same gun at the same distance.

View attachment 99638


Back to your gun, Do NOT slug the bore. Just get a couple pin gauges from Amazon, they're like $5 each. You won't need a whole set. Get .577 .579 .581. If .577 won't fit, your bore is likely .575-6. If .579 won't fit, your bore is .577-8. If .581 won't fit but .579 does your bore is .580.

Next, you can get really good sizing dies with a 7/8x14 thread. They're designed to fit a standard reloading press. Size your minies to .001 under bore size. Again on commercial minies, if you want good, quality minies, Lodgewood is the ONLY source I'd trust. Track and others are round ball guys. The fellow that casts for Lodgewood is a fellow N-SSA competitor and Pat knows how to cast a minie. If I want to look into a different mold design, I'll get a sample pack from him before buying the mold for more serious load development.

As for powder, 3f is fine, 2f may work. This is something that will have to be determined by experiment. I got my best accuracy with the bullets I use with 3f Old Eynsford. With the latest Goex issue, I've moved over to 3f Swiss. These two powders are nearly identical in performance. Don't get caught up in "service charges" of 60g if you're looking for best accuracy. It's often found with most guns in the 40-50gr range with 3f, but again, sometimes 2f yields better results. Ditch the pyrodex.

Lube- basic beeswax/lard with a touch of lanolin.

Get this right and you won't have to resort to any of the round ball gyrations of bore wiping etc. The minie was designed to be able to reload a "fouled" gun and keep accuracy at the same time so fouling type and control is the key. I've run a musket with a minie for over 60 shots straight with no wiping and no loading issues nor loss of accuracy.

But what do I know..........

View attachment 99637

What specification of pin gauges do you use? ZZ or Z ?

 

[rmark]

I have a Parker Hale 2 band musket made by Euroarms and have had no luck with the bullet pictured on the left, a Rapine 580313 or similar. Nor have traditional minies worked even when sized .581 which is bore size in my rifle. My best result has been with a Rapine 580470 trashcan minie sized to .581 with 35 grains of Goex 3f and 55 grains of Goex 2f at 50 yards. I haven’t worked at longer range yet but at 50 yards can usually have several shors in the white paper saucer I use as a target. The Euroarms bores tend to run big.

 

[rmark]

Also I’ve had no luck with Pyrodex RS and minie bullets, I suspect pressure doesn’t rise fast enough to expand the bullet into the rifling. Haven’t tried Pyrodex pistol powder, black powder works well. I’m

 

[dave951]

I have a Parker Hale 2 band musket made by Euroarms and have had no luck with the bullet pictured on the left, a Rapine 580313 or similar. Nor have traditional minies worked even when sized .581 which is bore size in my rifle. My best result has been with a Rapine 580470 trashcan minie sized to .581 with 35 grains of Goex 3f and 55 grains of Goex 2f at 50 yards. I haven’t worked at longer range yet but at 50 yards can usually have several shors in the white paper saucer I use as a target. The Euroarms bores tend to run big.

Here's the magic that can happen with the Trashcan-

 

[fireman1]

Here's the magic that can happen with the Trashcan-

View attachment 103228

That is really good! I need to check out some of those trashcan bullets.

 

[fireman1]

Update on this.

I recieved my pin gauges. The .577 drops in, the .579 goes in the barrel about an inch.

I'm thinking that I need a .578 sizing die?

 

[dave951]

Update on this.

I recieved my pin gauges. The .577 drops in, the .579 goes in the barrel about an inch.

I'm thinking that I need a .578 sizing die?

Yup

 

[rmark]

I've bought press mounted push thru sizing dies online from Northeast Trade Company and been pretty happy with them.

 

[rmark]

If I recall correctly the historic 2 band Enfield had a 1-48 twist and progressively shallower rifling while the Euroarms has 1-66 and constant depth rifling. The Euroarms twist should work with a traditional minie yet I’ve only had the trashcan style work.