J.C. Gorges Flintlock

[DDutchman]

I recently acquired a left hand flintlock rifle built by J.C. Gorges in Frankfurt, Germany, circa 1800. The rifle was brought back by a WWII soldier and sleeved with a .44 inch groove sleeve. My interest is two fold:

1. Does anyone else own a J.C. Gorges firearm and

2. Where do I find a bullet sized to fire in a .44 caliber barrel? If I use traditional pillow ticking with thickness of .017" I need a round cast bullet around .406?

And if you know who might have installed the new barrel sometime in the last 75 years Garry James and I would be really interested.

 

[Col. Batguano]

You need to know the actual bore diameter and depth of the grooves. TotW has many different diameter balls out there that are in that range, and Lyman makes many different moulds. The good thing about a ML'er is that several different diameter balls can be made to work by varying the patch thickness, and to some extent, the lube.

 

[Spikebuck]

.44 caliber barrel? If I use traditional pillow ticking with thickness of .017" I need a round cast bullet around .406?

First, make sure the gun is safe to shoot. I'm assuming when you say it was "sleeved" this means a modern liner was installed.

I assume you came up with .406 because .44-(.017x2). IF your bore is .440, this formula would never allow the grooves to be sealed with patch material..you would only be filling the bore.

As already stated, you need to know your groove depth and it also matters how wide those grooves are to "soak up" patch material. ALSO, depends how you measure the patch thickness...uncrushed vs crushed as patches can compact quite a bit when forced down allowing the bore to be well-sealed.

A rule of thumb might be to start with a ball .010 smaller than your bore size...so around .430 in your case...I see Track of the Wolf sells .429's...and a .015 patch. From there, you play with patch thickness, lube, perhaps ball diameter, and powder charge having fun AND seeing what combination produces the very best groups.

Enjoy!

 

[DDutchman]

I fear my forebears were far more intelligent than I. I am afraid I do not grasp the correct nomenclatures. I measure the barrel at the widest diameter. That measurement is .44 inches. The "lands" are raised, as in the modern way and have less diameter than the widest diameter .44 inches. I have not measured them. That is my dilemma.

I got to thinking that since it is a "modern" barrel, as in less than 75 years, probably, I might be able to use a hard cast conical bullet, like a Meister with a wad instead of ticking. My gunsmith scoped the barrel, and we found that someone had use copper bullets in the thing.

Since the original barrel was .54 inches, and the sleeve reduced it to .44 inches there is little doubt I can fire the gun with black powder safely.

It seems to me that the poor soldier and whoever sleeved the barrel were not cognizant of what conical bullet sizes were appropriate and available. Of course, 70 years ago there may have been bullets that fit perfectly with ticking or wadding. So what now?

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the forum.

We in the muzzleloading world are speaking of the bore diameter when we talk about the barrels caliber.

The rifling grooves cut into the bore are as you say, larger in diameter so, the first thing we need to know is, what is the diameter of the bore?

Once known, we can recommend a projectile.

Speaking of the projectile, the best one for your barrel will depend on the rate of twist of the rifling and the depth of the rifling grooves.

If you don't know how to measure the twist, perhaps the instructions in this link will help:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...tid/297422/post/1524314/fromsearch/1/#1524314

If the rate of twist is 1 inch of full rotation in 40 inches of travel or larger (1:48, 1:52, 1:72 etc.) and the rifling grooves are .005 or greater in depth, the barrel is made to shoot patched lead roundballs.
If it is less than 1:40 or if the rifling grooves are shallow like .004 inch or less, the barrel is made for shooting elongated slugs or "bullets".

Patched lead roundballs can be shot in these shallow groove, fast twist barrels but the accuracy is usually poor.

 

[Grenadier1758]

When we reference bore diameter, we refer to the measurement from land to land.

We use the groove diameter as a guide for patch thickness.

 

[DDutchman]

Thank you very much for the clarification. Perhaps I misspoke regarding caliber. I will use the following Wikipedia definition:

"Rifled bores may be described by the bore diameter (the diameter across the lands or high points in the rifling), or by groove diameter (the diameter across the grooves or low points in the rifling)."

What I mean to say is that the outer most diameter(grooves) of the sleeve is .440 inches. That measurement is in between the lands which are raised and have a smaller width than the .44 caliber grooves. The lands are raised and narrow. The grooves are wide.

I have a borescope arriving today. I will measure the twist rate and make note of the number of raised lands and try to estimate the width of the grooves and lands.

I suspect that using Meister bore slugs is not advisable in a muzzleloader. Joke.

 

[Zonie]

Yes. I believe we all knew you gave us the groove diameter and the author of the Wikipedia definition may be correct when generalizing about all rifled firearms.
He is not correct however if he is discussing rifled muzzleloading guns.
Their caliber is the diameter at the top of the land.

This land or "bore" diameter is the size that determines the size of the projectile be it a patched roundball or a solid slug.

The width of the lands is not really a factor.

For instance, the Rifled Musket used by the military in the 1860's had very wide rifling grooves with narrow lands. Even so, the caliber of these arms is based on the size of the bore (lands).

I do understand the difficulty in measuring bore sizes when the lands are narrow.
To complicate this further, often original guns used an odd number of grooves.
This was done to provide a solid precision surface opposite the cutter in the rifling cutter and although it aided the barrelmaker it makes obtaining a accurate measurement of the bore very difficult.

In any case, what we need to know to give you a good answer for a projectile is the bore diameter and the rate of the rifling twist in inches.

 

[DDutchman]

I deeply appreciate y'all's patience and understanding.

Keeping in mind my hands, eyes and head no longer work like my younger days and all measurements must be taken as broadly approximate:

1. The twist rate is 1:33". The barrel is 26".

2. There are four(4) grooves and therefore four(4) lands. They appear to be equal in width. The angles between lands and grooves seem to be about 45 degrees.

3. The grooves are about .445" The lands are about .425"

Is it possible the new barrel sleeve was designed to accommodate modern coated bullet types?

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Just an FYI, an easy way to figure out the twist rate without any special tools is to put patch on the ramrod (or range rod) and put it in the barrel. Push the ramrod most of the way down leaving about 9" above the muzzle.

Now attach a post it note to the ramrod with the bottom of the note flush with the muzzle. Start pulling the ramrod up allowing it twist as it comes up from the patch engaging the rifling. When that post-it note is pointing 180° away from where it started, measure the distance from the muzzle to the bottom of the post it note. Double that distance and you will now have your twist rate.

Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Dan

 

[tree]

If you have a friendly machinist with plug gauges then that can give you very accurate land to land measurements. They usually come in sets that increase .001.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Yes, it appears that your rifle was provided with a liner to be used with 44 special bullets. Since you have evidence of copper fouling in the barrel, it most likely was used with bullets designed for a pistol. I would guess that due to gas leakage around the bullet, accuracy was not all that great.

Based on the bore diameter of 0.425" and a rate of twist of 1 in 33". that makes bullet selection more of a chore.

Neither Lee Precision or Lyman makes roundball molds of 0.410" or 0.415" diameter. With a twist of 1 in 33" light loads of 20 to 40 grains of 3fg powder would be recommended for reasonable accuracy. Jeff Tanner offers molds of all sizes so you can order a 0.410 or 0.415 diameter mold. Probably need to order (Lyman) mold handles as well. Patching of 0.015 pillow ticking or 0.018" thick would be recommended.

Minie Balls of 0.450 would have to be resized to 0.424" to fit your bore of 0.425". That would have to be a custom resizing die.

The Lee Precision REAL conical in 220 grains is possible, but since the diameter is about 0.450", loading would be a mallet and short starter process. Not to mention being very difficult and hard to start.

I don't think the 44 special bullets are a good choice because of the blow by. They are too big for easy paper patching as they would have to be resized from 0.429" to 0.420" and you will still have the blow by. The 40 magnum bullets of 0.410" diameter are a possibility with paper patching. Take more than a couple of wraps of hair curler paper or cigarette papers to fill the bore and still a bit looser in the bore than I think for good accuracy on target.

 

[DDutchman]

I found Track of the Wolf sells .410 round ball. Guess I will try those first.