J Henry Scroll Guard Rifle

[Spikebuck]

Since I'm in the process of building what many would call a "fantasy gun", that being a flint, fullstock, Hawken, I was especially interested in my visit to the Museum of the Fur Trade today to look for guns that look like a fullstock Hawken but in flint.

While I'm sure many of you are already familiar with the J Henry Scroll Guard Rifle, I had never heard of it. While it does differ from the "fantasy gun" Flint Hawken in that has a single trigger, a shorter tang, and a sideplate, the architecture, buttplate shape, combline, scroll trigger guard, and late-english style lock, and lock mortise all pretty much take on the appearance of the "fantasy" Hawken. At least to my untrained eye.

I've attached a few pics of the one they have at the Museum, but interested in other info you guys may know about these firearms.

Also is the builder J Henry the one of Henry Rifle fame? Or a relative?

Always a lot to learn in this game!!! :grin:

DSCN0848 by mdheaser

Second from the right

DSCN0849 by mdheaser

DSCN0847 by mdheaser

DSCN0850 by mdheaser

 

[galamb]

I believe you will find the trigger guard on the Henry is almost identical to that found on English Fowler's. Henry was also noted for making "English Pattern rifles".

The "Henry" that made the black powder stuff was "J" Henry from Philadelphia. The Henry of cartridge gun fame was "B" Henry - I do not know one way or the other if they were related.

An early Hawken full-stock flint, if such a beast existed in Plains/Mountain style probably still would not have had a trigger guard such as found on the Henry or later Hawken rifles for that matter.

A Maryland trigger guard would be most likely or a modified (hybrid) Maryland style in the very least.

The 1836 Atcheson Hawken had one of those "hybrid" style guards. You can see the Maryland guard starting to "morph" into the guard that comes to mind when you think of a Plains/Mountain Hawken.

You could argue that since your flint Hawken is a "fantasy gun" that an English style trigger guard is OK because there is no example - fair enough - but I believe there is considerable evidence, based on the "evolutionary" Hawken's, that it SHOULD have a Maryland guard on it.

 

[Richard Brinkman]

I have always been interested in half stock flinters too. Is the J henry a half stock? How long is the barrel? Bore size? Curious minds would like to know?

RB

 

[Spikebuck]

The one I saw was a full stock. Unfortunately, many of the guns did not have the caliber noted and I don't recall seeing barrel length noted for any of them. Some of the guns had barrels that were very long...over four feet I'm sure. If I recall, this J Henry was probably 36" or 37" for a barrel length.

 

[Spikebuck]

You could argue that since your flint Hawken is a "fantasy gun" that an English style trigger guard is OK because there is no example - fair enough - but I believe there is considerable evidence, based on the "evolutionary" Hawken's, that it SHOULD have a Maryland guard on it.

Graham, I surely wouldn't bet against what you say. I think if one existed it would have the strong Maryland influence rather than having morphed into the later Hawken style, but just in Flint.

My goal was to find a gun that if a person wanted a fullstock flinter that closely resembled a later Hawken, but in flint, there is a fine example. I think that the J Henry rifle is pretty darned close. Still not the same "parts set" but it has the "look." I like that one enough that in some future build I may try to do a copy.

The museum has numerous J Henry, and J Henry & Sons rifles there. They also had a Christian and Jacob Hawken Kentucky rifle! I was surprised to see on one of their original Sam Hawken half-stock percussion rifles a full sized patchbox...not one of the little round or oval ones commonly seen.

DSCN0854 by mdheaser

 

[blackdog of vt]

JJ Henry and later J Henry factories were the biggest suppliers of rifles west and mass produced rifles. From 1826 to 1842 they sold 718 the first percussion in 1839 to fur trade companies. There were a few different places of manufacture in Pa but the family started gun smithing in Lancaster pre F&I war.
The rifle you speak of has a 41'' barrel and .58cal That was called the Lancaster or American pattern and was the standard, certainly would have been the most common seen. I handled one a couple times with the same guard and it was very slim in the forestock and fit very comfortable.

 

[crockett]

No, the two are not related. The Henry rifles were some of the more common type of rifles used by the mountain men. In Bolton, PA check out: http://www.jacobsburghistory.com/
They sell a paperback book for about $10 or so on the history of the Henry's. They made firearms for over 5 generations, beginning in Colonial times and up to the end of the Percussion era. At one point they had a Philadelphia Plant and then moved back to Bolton.
They also made a few NW trade guns.
They supplied the fur companies who issued the rifles to their hired men and skin trappers, etc. The true free trapper on his own hook used a wide assortment of firearms.
Derringer made similar trade rifles but mostly to fulfill treaty contracts the Government had with various tribes.
The Museum of the Fur Trade, they have a Sketchbook of that particular rifle with full sized patterns of the stock, lock, etc- so you can make an exact duplicate.

 

[galamb]

I would say if you haven't picked up a trigger guard yet (or not using the standard "kit" from Track) you could go with an English Fowler style trigger guard.

Someone recently used one, I'm thinking on a Hawken build (maybe) and while it did look a little "different" it certainly looked "believable".

The "Hawken" guards did change over time. The earlier ones "loop" at the back was very round (like the English or Henry style). It was Sam that kinda "squished" the loop into an oval.

The guard that Track advertises as an early Hawken is NOT indicative of a "very early" design. Likewise, those guards with the grip tight/flat to the stock were also "later and less common" than the current suppliers would have you believe.

Your best bet for an "accurate" early guard would be, again, English, or get a guard from Don Stith (St. Louis Plains Rifle Co.) .

Here's a diagram of what I'm referring to with the loop - below that is the (flat) guard - note the loop which dates it "later" (post 1840).

 

[azmntman]

Where you aware there was a goofy looking guy taking yer picture in the fourth frame? :blah:

 

[Spikebuck]

Where you aware there was a goofy looking guy taking yer picture in the fourth frame? :blah:

Yep, he's kinda creepy and keeps hanging around me, but I've gotten used to him. :wink: :grin:

 

[crockett]

Let us know how the rifle comes out. I've often wondered why Track of the Wolf or some other provider of muzzle loading kits does not come out with a J. Henry trade rifle. A lot of folks are interested in the mountain man era and not everyone wants to shoot a Hawken or NW trade gun.

 

[lowcsp]

This scroll guard I built with chambers late ketland lock and the rest of the parts came from the rifle shop they say they are copys from an original.