James II. Flintlock???

[Ike Godsey]

hi there,

here in a gun auktion, there is a musket for sale that is labled as:

England Militär Steinschloßgewehr um 1700 James II Rex aptiert !

trsanlates as:

England Military Flintlock longgun ca. 1700 James II Rex converted!

here are some pics:

could anyone help identify this thing?

thank you,

ike

 

[Alden]

I can't without investing some time I don't have at the moment but that is interesting. I wonder how much of his stuff actually survived The Glorious Revolution. However, who would take the 17th C. (personal I presume they mean?) flintlock of the last Stuart king and convert it to cap in the 19th C.!?

Sounds a little far-fetched to me from 40,000 feet...

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

Sounds a little far-fetched to me from 40,000 feet...

And far -fetched at much nearer to seal level. At best it is an English lock (not early enough to King James) on a Germanic firearm. Do they show photos of any proof marks on the barrel Ike? My opinion is that it is a German gun with, perhaps, and early 18th century British lock. Of course I could be mistaken, we need better, more detailed pictures if you can locate any.

 

[Ike Godsey]

sorry, no sign of any proof marks.

what i am wondering (by checking locks in the brown bess book)

is this screw:

why is it visable? should it not be behind the hammer? is it visable because of the conversion?
and should this not be a banana type lock from this age? I think is this a fake...

ike

 

[TFoley]

I think is this a fake...
ike

Yup.

tac

 

[pargent]

Not the Royal Cypher of James11
English locks from this time have a third retaining screw in the lock tail . the gun is GERMANIC and so is the lock .

 

[pargent]

James 11 reigned 1685-88 if we were to timeline that lock into the English gun trade as a flinter it would come out at around 1771 +(1777 for tower military issue ).

 

[Ike Godsey]

James 11 reigned 1685-88 if we were to timeline that lock into the English gun trade as a flinter it would come out at around 1771 +(1777 for tower military issue ).

that is my conclusion too.
and, the British used a dog lock at those days of Jammes II. one can argue someone removed the dog - but there ist still no sign of the "dog-screw".

also the crown does not look english. could it be that this mark is German?

 

[robinghewitt]

I don't think it is a "fake", I think it is misunderstood.

I particularly like the unusual butt end, looks like a cylinder with attachments top and bottom. Very pretty and strangely familiar but I can't remember where from.

 

[pargent]

+1

 

[Ike Godsey]

I particularly like the unusual butt end, looks like a cylinder with attachments top and bottom. Very pretty and strangely familiar but I can't remember where from.

an internet research showed up some muskets with buttstocks similar to this. they are spanish and italian origin.

the buttstock shape is called "Madird-Stock" which is - as i understood - refering to the two "channels" running thorwards the buttstocks end.

ike

 

[robinghewitt]

But if it was Spanish might you expect a miquelet?

The lockplate has an early looking pointy tail and I see ordnance lines around the margins. Doesn't prove anything but it is interesting.

Can you see J2R in the scratching? Page 53 in Blackmores book British Military Firearms has a picky of a James II carbine by Humphrey Pickfatt. There are a pair of J2R engravings on p283. Don't get your hopes up though, the Pickfatt has the banana and third crosspin mentioned above :hmm:

Silly question, there is no sling swivel on the trigger bow. Is there a screw hole in the stock?

 

[Ike Godsey]

here are the rest of the pics:

there are no more and no "better" pics in the auction. the auction ends in 4 hours from now on.

ike

 

[robinghewitt]

Without J2R on it, with the crappy conversion and sawn off stock I'd reckon it is worth $75. If it goes for more than that then it could either mean people are recognising it for what it is, or, they are getting duped by the Jamesian reference :thumbsup:

 

[Alden]

...butt end, looks like a cylinder with attachments top and bottom. Very pretty and strangely familiar but I can't remember where from.

Evans Repeating Rifle perhaps...

 

[robinghewitt]

Evans Repeating Rifle perhaps...

Was that an airgun? Am I remembering a cylindrical air tank inside a 2 piece butt? That sounds like a typical outpouring from my brain :youcrazy:

 

[Alden]

Funny you say that -- I was wondering the same thing, and maybe some paintball guns look like it, but, I meant the Evans'. I remember having bought one. with its two or three dozen round capacity, and sitting on a plane fron Denver to New York pondering the latest assault weapons ban vs. these 1870's lever-action rifles. Moron politicians...
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=evans+repeating+rifle&qpvt=evans+repeating+rifle&FORM=IGRE

 

[KABAR2]

17th Century dog lock had three screws attaching it to the gun..... plates were flat pans were small and no reinforce for frizzen, lock looks 1770's engraving look more germanic.... gun is a mishmosh of parts...... auction house is wishing its something its not

 

[brownbess67]

Hi (sorry my english), maybe a Catalan stock ??
http://www.todocoleccion.net/impresionante-trabuco-culata-catalana~x26975412

 

[brownbess67]

Hello (sorry my english please), I read that this screw starts to be visible in the pattern 1777 british Government lock, and this lockplate looks very similar to that pattern.
Wanted the James II cypher, I found this is a crowned J2R.
The stock seems to be a catalan pattern:
http://www.todocoleccion.net/impresionante-trabuco-culata-catalana~x26975412

But Im not an expert,just enthusiastic.
Regards.