Jedidiah Smith

[James Stella]

Does anyone know what make or caliber guns he carried? When he was killed he was suppose to be carrying a rifle and two pistols, but i can not find any info on them. I guess they were probably flintlocks because of the time frame.

Thanks

 

[galamb]

At some point he carried a Hawken Rifle (a couple unverified sources), possibly built by Sam before he got into business with his brother.

There is some minimal evidence that Sam built some rifles for Gen Ashley as early as 1822, three years prior to the J&S days (in 1825), and that some of these rifles were used during the exploration of the Missouri river by Ashley's employees.

So it's possible, if all that is true, that Smith came into possession of a very early St. Louis, Sam Hawken rifle.

There was a rumour that the Santa Fe Hawken built by Western Arms was supposedly a copy of the Smith Hawken, but that turned out to be more wishful thinking than fact. It was of a much later style than Smith could have owned since he died in 1831, quite a while before the Hawken Plains rifle style came into full being.

 

[LaBonte]

His pistols, only one of which has seemed to survive and it was stolen from the museum some years ago, were built by famed gun/lock maker Philip Creamer. There is only vague reference to his rifle, which could have been built as well by Creamer. If my have been built by one of the Hawken Bros pre 1825 or later by the brothers shop, since Smith didn't die until 1831 which is five years after the Bros Hawken joined forces.

The pistols were built as cap locks which means Smith was an early user of the new firing system.

Below are a couple of photos of one of his pistols along with a description. In the second image his pistol holsters can be seen. These are commonly known as buckets and were generally carried slung over the saddle horn.
http://www.jedediahsmithsociety.org/images2.html
http://www.springsgov.com/museum//...on&-lay=CGS&-recid=30363&-field=photograph(1)

Creamer by the way was a master gunsmith and many of his rifles are in an early mountain aka plains rifle full-stock configuration. He is also most likely the master under whom Jim Bridger apprenticed as a black smith. There is a neat little bulletin on Creamer that's worth while tracking down for those interested in early gunsmith's of the western trade.

 

[galamb]

(Chuck, great to see a post from you. I do hope all is well on your end of things)

I will add something else to this discussion of what "guns" (in general) that Smith may have carried, at least at some point during his time in the west.

In 1823 Ashley procured a "wagon load" of rifle and 300 pounds of powder from a Pennsylvania company called Stone and Bostwick. They procured most of their rifles from the Lancaster area.

So, if Smith obtained at least one of his rifles from "the company" (Ashley's company in this case), he may have carried a rifle built in Lancaster in the early 1820's (by the likes of Leman, Fordney etc).

Sorry - I don't have many details on the guns that were sent west from Lancaster. My interest lies in early St. Louis guns by Sam Hawken and only have the information about Stone & Bostwick because it was reported that some of the supplies from them were lost in an accident and Ashley procured some replacements from Sam Hawken who had a shop on the Levee in St. Louis (in mid 1823).

 

[BillinOregon]

By the way, Jed Smith was a staunch and pious Methodist, carried his Bible everywhere, and reportedly never used profanity, took a drink or smoked.

 

[longcruise]

Hmmmm... Maybe he was banished to the mountains :haha:

If his pistol was a .50, I wonder if his rifle was as well?

 

[James Stella]

thanks for the good info. the pistol looks a bit like a lyman plains pistol.

 

[tenngun]

He had quit the mountains and been almost a year in st Lou prior to joining the Santa Fe trade. There is a good chance he bought the newest and latest rifle shortly before leaving. Hawken was less of a household name then and plenty of rifles were coming out of Pennsylvana , Maryland, Ohio, and local made. After the fact myths color our thinking.

 

[LaBonte]

Howdy Graham - I'm doing OK considering. Just found out the chemo treatments have disrupted the making of bone marrow, so start a new therapy tomorrow to fix that problem.

I'd say that Jed Smith very likely owned a fe to several different rifles prior to his death in 1831 when he was only 32. Smith had to re-supply away from the rendezvous on at least three occasions prior to his death: Once in far west Montana over the winter he re-suppled from the Brits; during his second trip to California he ran into trouble with the Mojaves and not only were several of his men killed, but most of his goods were stolen and he re-supplied in California most likely from the Brit or American traders established there; The second massacre of most of his men and the loss of all his goods occurred in SW Oregon, and he was re-supplied by the John McLoughlin at the Brit post Fort Vancouver. At least in the last two instances he very likely lost his firearms. In all three cases if firearms needed to be replaced they would probably be American made rifles by those Lancaster smith's who catered to the trade (they are listed in the book "Hawken Rifles" by the late Charles Hanson or they could just as easily have been Brit made arms of various types.

Who made them is a good, but most likely unsolvable question unless some new info arises but even by 1830 or so the Hawken Bros were quite well known for top quality rifles in either full-stock (most common at the time) or Half-stock. For references to the use of Hawken rifles by the upper class fur traders see the purchase of two Hawken rifles by AFCo brigade leader, Etienne Provost in 1828-29 followed by the order of two Hawkens in 1829 by Kenneth McKenzie aka Lord of the Upper Missouri who was the AFCo factor at Ft. Union and a purchaser of quality goods including a mail shirt specially ordered from England! IMO based on Smith's purchase and use of the Creamer pistols in cap lock IMO shows him to be progressive in his thinking regarding the new system as well as he apparently liked the top grade made guns when available. Whether or not his rifle at the time of his death was a percussion or flintlock is still a question to be answered. It may very well have been a percussion rifle, but percussion pistols were more common than rifles in the west until around 1840, when flint rifles became less common.
IMO speculation is all that's left in this case, but based on the period info available we can make fairly accurate inferences on the type and make of firearms used by Smith during his time in the west until his death.

 

[sidelock]

The very best to you in your treatment. You are surely well read.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Hmmmm... Maybe he was banished to the mountains.

Jedadiah Smith was born about 15 miles NW of were I live (Bainbridge, NY). Only a few miles from where my Mother was born.

No relation, but Joseph Smith was the Smith run out of Bainbridge, NY in 1823 for hustling locals with the promise of locating treasure on their property with a "glass looking stone" which allowed him to see buried coin. Ain't the world a funny place?

 

[LaBonte]

The very best to you in your treatment. You are surely well read.

Thank you sir. I've been studying the Rocky Mtn Fur Trade ever since my folks bought me a copy of DeVoto's "Across the Wide Missouri" in 1961. In their is a picture of a mountain man known as Old Bill Burrows, a distant cousin that looked so much like my Dad that they could have been brothers. Have since read everything about the subject I could/can lay my hands on.

 

[BillinOregon]

Chuck, your parents certainly chose wisely in giving you DeVoto's book at such a tender age.
I was in college before I discovered it.
Stumpie, great story. Wonder if that other Smith used the "glass looking stone" to discover the alleged golden plates.

 

[LaBonte]

Yep they were wise and I got lucky - being a boomer my first exposure to the "frontier" was Disney's Davy Crockett series - used to have a pic of me from around age 4 in my official Davy Crockett naugahyde "skins", "coonskin" cap, and plastic flinter.
The fall after I got the DeVoto book my Dad took me up to my great uncle's place where I learned to shoot his percussion rifle and shotgun. A vet of WW1, he swore that there was no need for him to use one of those modern "slaughter" guns. A year later visited my cousin in Allentown and he introduced me to a friend who collected and shot flint locks.
Never looked back after that - while I've owned a number of cartridge guns, both BP and smokeless, my first love is the muzzleloaders.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Here's to ya, get well soon.