Just a reminder about using BP only in a BP gun...

[Zonie]

I wonder what type of powder, and the charge used in the gun pictured in the OP. I have loaded smokeless in a BP revolver MANY times, and didn't damage the gun in any way.

If smokeless pressures are kept equal to, or less than the level of black powder loads, there will be no added stress to the gun.

Check it out. BTDT.

The key here is the comment I highlighted.
Smokeless powder has a LOT more energy in it than black powder does so small changes in the weight of the powder charge can make a big difference.

I'm going a little beyond the scope of the forum but, I have a book that gives loading data for a .45-70. It lists a number of powders and loads for original trapdoors and the modern Ruger #1. The loads for the trapdoor do not exceed 18,000 cup. The loads for the Ruger do not exceed 50,000 cup.

For a smokeless powder that I have, the 18,000 cup load equals 35 grains of smokeless. The 50,000 cup load equals 50 grains of smokeless.
Notice a change of only 15 grains of smokeless powder makes a 32,000 cup difference in pressure. (Some of my data says a 20 grain change in the amount of black powder can change the pressure about 2,600 psi).

I also determined the weight of the smokeless powder is just a little bit lighter than black powder so for the sake of discussion let's say they are the same.

Now, very few hunters would load up their hunting rifle with a 50 g powder charge. Most, would load it with something over 80 grains.

If a person put a 80 grain powder charge of this smokeless powder under a 300 grain slug in his rifle I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the pressure in the breech go well over 65,000 cup. At least for a few milli-seconds before the barrel exploded.

That is why loading smokeless powder into a muzzleloader is dangerous. It is why smokeless powder will usually blow a muzzleloader up. It is why I say, NEVER USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN YOUR BLACK POWDER MUZZLE-LOADER.

 

[tomm9903]

Being a gunsmith, the very thought of using smokeless in black powder arms is terrifying.

 

[mooman76]

Not to mention some smokeless powders are position sensitive so even a small amount can go totally wrong.

 

[toot]

I for one still like DARWINS THEARY!!

 

[MSW]

worked for a fellow who was a trial attorney & one of his first cases was a fellow who bought a BRAND NEW muzzle loader, read the instructions (and ignored them, by his own admission, under oath at deposition and later under oath on direct examination) and clearly ignored the instructions engraved into the barrel ("BLACK POWDER ONLY") and took it to the range and loaded up his new gun with (you guessed it) 90 grains of IMR 3031.

needless to say, things pretty much went sideways for the fellow.

my boss actually got a plaintiff verdict at trail, which proves that some juries are dumber than a badly thrown stick, and some plaintiffs are even dumber.

 

[wb78963]

this discussion is completely dangerous. Using Smokesless nitro powders in Black Gun Powder guns IS DEADLY PERIOD!!!
Anyone that tries is leaves stupid way back there. It is dangerous, it is stupid and ranks right up there with
"hold my beer Bubba and watch this"
Zonie this thread needs to be locked down NOW. with a big DO NOT TRY THIS...ever.

 

[mooman76]

I see it as more dangerous NOT to discuss it. This way we are passing the word and it might help someone new to the sport that thinks he or she can get by.

 

[wb78963]

I see it as more dangerous NOT to discuss it. This way we are passing the word and it might help someone new to the sport that thinks he or she can get by.

Mooman76 I stand corrected. You are 100% correct if this discussion helps, an it does, it is the right thing to do.
Bunk

 

[ROCKFANNING]

I have 4 Cartridge cylinders for my cap and ball revolvers from several different manufacturers. I reload with 3fg in my. 45 cal and get about 800 fps which is good enough. I generally only compress the powder very little when I reload. No idea how much powder.
But I have shot a real .45 in my ruger old army by mistake, with no damage to me or my gun. But the shot went way high.

 

[Zonie]

The Ruger Old Army and it's cylinder are made from the same high strength, alloy steel that Ruger's cartridge guns are made from.

The cylinders that come on the Italian made reproductions of cap & ball and single shot pistols are made from weak, low carbon steel.

Even so, I would never shoot smokeless powder in a Ruger Old Army.
If you read the post I made above, you should know that a very small increase of smokeless powder can make a tremendous difference in the amount of pressure that smokeless powder makes.
That is why, those of us who reload modern cartridges go by the recommended powder loads listed in books from the places that make the powder and measure out the powder loads carefully.
Even a change of just a few tenths of a grain of some smokeless powders over the listed amounts can be enough to make a reloaded cartridge dangerous and it could blow a modern gun apart. For instance, did you know that the amount of Bullseye powder to load a cartridge for a .38 Special with a 110 grain jacketed hollow point is only 4.5 grains? If you switch the bullet to a 160 grain jacketed soft point, you better lower that load of Bullseye down to 3.5 grains or there is a good chance you will blow up your gun.

Smokeless powder is serious stuff and tiny changes can make a huge difference in pressure. Couple this knowledge with the crude powder measures we use for black powder and you can see how the whole idea of loading smokeless powder in a muzzleloader or cap & ball pistol is foolish and asking for trouble.
The kind of trouble that can blind, maim or kill the shooter.

 

[ppg1949]

and took it to the range and loaded up his new gun with (you guessed it) 90 grains of IMR 3031.

I have never reloaded for a modern rifle but 90 grains of IMR seems like an awful lot even for a modern centerfire.

 

[Griz44Mag]

and took it to the range and loaded up his new gun with (you guessed it) 90 grains of IMR 3031.

I have never reloaded for a modern rifle but 90 grains of IMR seems like an awful lot even for a modern centerfire.

MAX powder drop on anything I can find with a quick scan of my loading books is 47 gr for a 200gr .308 rifle.
You put DOUBLE that in a muzzleloader - you are going to lose some bodily functionality, maybe all of them.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I think your all wrong I bet after what everyone has been telling me for ages is that it was 4f because someone, well a few told me that it detonates!

 

[shorthair]

They probably would say that the powder was black colored.

 

[Treestalker]

I've always advocated removing warning labels en mass and let nature take it's course...............

Merciless, just Merciless!

 

[kje54]

Merciless, just Merciless!

I sell Darwin Awards........... Just trying to drum up some more business........

 

[Carbon 6]

Welp, now it's a trapdoor...........

No, it's a convertible can't you tell ? The top is retracting.

 

[1clayguy]

Black powder matters.

That is very funny!

 

[Ontario47]

 

[Intosomthin]

I will never understand why smokeless powder n black powder can be confused... guess is just somthin i learned along the way. My dad niether hunt nor fished. Learned by books n class of woods. I used to reload ammo at a time. But i never mistook smokeless for black powder. Education dun come cheap i guess... i can see how... it happens... but damn, dont anyone ask questions before they try stuff nemore? This aint a hobby for evil kenivel