Kaido Ojamaa's 255 conical and the ROA

[Dundee]

I recently have come into possession of one of kaido's 255 grain conical molds. he was very easy to do business with and sent some additional supplies to test and review. however i am in need of some opinions. I started casting with wheel weights and pure lead to try and get a harder conical. been using 50/50 ww to pure lead and casting on the highest setting of my Lee melting pot (9). Here are my problems.
1. the conicals are not coming out in any consistent size. mold is sized for .456-.457, but I'm getting conicals measuring from .453 all the way to .460! I don't know why i am suddenly getting such spread out sizes. I try to cast at the same temp and allow the lead to heat up along with warming the mold.
2. with the difference in size is coming a difference to load. .457 and lower load easily while not surprisingly the .460 will start very easily but it is almost impossible to ram it home.
3. accuracy. i can put six .457 round balls in the same hole at 15 yards and ring a steel plate at 50 not problem. but i am struggling to work up a load for these conicals. Kaido recomemds using 777 powder, but all i currently have is pyrodex and the german powder. I cant seem to get better than a three inch group no matter the load and i think that part of it is the difference in my conicals diamiters. ive tried sorting them and shooting groups of the same size, but it still hasn't gotten much better. I have on two groups gotten four shots in one hole but two flyers went so far off that it scared me. my best groups were 45 grains of pyrodex rs and the .460 diameters. And 45 grains pyrodex rs with i think the .457 diameters. both had two flyers. the .460 had the tightest group, but it was so hard to load i bruised my hand trying to ram it home. i still couldn't seat it all the way on two and they clipped the frame shaving off some lead from the head of the conical. those two were my flyers. i would like to try more of those but i think i will break something if i do and i know that there will be some that dont fully seat even with a 30g load.
4. I know pyrodex rs is not the cap and ball powder. opinions on pyrodex p or tripple 7?
5. Kaido told me these would shoot high and they certainly do. if you plan to shoot these aim 8" low minimum or get a taller sight.
6. although i am having trouble getting the load worked up and conicals to cast a consistent size i will say that these are still amazing to work with and shoot. the power and felt recoil these deliver when going off is insane. i have a ruger vaquero and i shoot my cheap steel plate with it and it doesn't leave a ding. these conicals will leave a decent divot in the metal and rock it hard! cant wait to see what they do to a deer.

looking forward to seeing your thoughts. all advice is appreciated. if you are interested in purchasing some of these conicals to try them for yourselves they are listed on ebay and gunbroker. I've seen where others have sold them lubed and non lubed so I will offer the same. my lube doesn't melt as easy so hopefully they arrive in good condition. if not let me know and ill adjust.

 

[Bad Karma]

I would do is check the hardness of the bullets you’re casting as well as measuring and weighing them. I’m guessing here but I bet you have pretty wide variations in both diameter and weight.
Along those lines, why do you feel you need such hard cast bullets for deer? Your Kentucky deer aren’t gonna hit 200 pounds are they? I’ve killed mulies over 200 pounds with pure lead bullets and they will give you an exit wound.
Kaido bullets are an excellent fit for the cap and ball revolver but if I were loading them cast of wheel weights I believe I would load the cylinders off the gun. Better to tear up a loader than to tweak something not so easily replaced.
I would expect 45 grains of any powder would be difficult to compress but beyond that, yes, do use T7, Swiss 3f, or Pyrodex P if you’re looking for high velocity. I use Swiss 3 and 4f in the Old Army. I do still have some T7 and Pyrodex around here somewhere but I do prefer blackpowder.

 

[Dundee]

I would do is check the hardness of the bullets you’re casting as well as measuring and weighing them. I’m guessing here but I bet you have pretty wide variations in both diameter and weight.
Along those lines, why do you feel you need such hard cast bullets for deer? Your Kentucky deer aren’t gonna hit 200 pounds are they? I’ve killed mulies over 200 pounds with pure lead bullets and they will give you an exit wound.
Kaido bullets are an excellent fit for the cap and ball revolver but if I were loading them cast of wheel weights I believe I would load the cylinders off the gun. Better to tear up a loader than to tweak something not so easily replaced.
I would expect 45 grains of any powder would be difficult to compress but beyond that, yes, do use T7, Swiss 3f, or Pyrodex P if you’re looking for high velocity. I use Swiss 3 and 4f in the Old Army. I do still have some T7 and Pyrodex around here somewhere but I do prefer blackpowder.

any clue to why there is such a wide range in diameter in my casts? never had that problem casting pure lead so maybe i just need to stick to that. also I've heard of swiss but never seen it for sale or any true black powder. always gotten goex or graff and sons from the club. where can i find some other true bp

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

any clue to why there is such a wide range in diameter in my casts? never had that problem casting pure lead so maybe i just need to stick to that. also I've heard of swiss but never seen it for sale or any true black powder. always gotten goex or graff and sons from the club. where can i find some other true bp

Are you discarding the first dozen or so? Maybe the mold hasn't heated up yet?

 

[Smokerr]

I would try pure lead and see. Casting can be tricky, did quite a bit back in the 70s.

777 would get you the velocity you seem to want or is working for you. 45 grains in a ROA is a heck of a lot and my guess is you are fighting compression of the powder as well as the diameters.

777 is reported to not like compression so you have to watch that. I seem to do better with the powders that fill a chamber more (Pyro P, RS and GOEX).

You can try a Mag Spark kit, you get a boost of velocity with the 209 primers, less powder.

I have had lead balls up to 1200 fps without lead in the barrell.

 

[M. De Land]

any clue to why there is such a wide range in diameter in my casts? never had that problem casting pure lead so maybe i just need to stick to that. also I've heard of swiss but never seen it for sale or any true black powder. always gotten goex or graff and sons from the club. where can i find some other true bp

A couple of things I would ask.
1. Have you properly smoked the molds?
2. Are you following a consistent casting cadence ?
3. Are you getting the molds completely closed each time or is some lead stuck on the mold face preventing this?
4. Do you have and use a good lead thermometer ? I like at least 750 F. of the melt and warming up the mold in the melt by dipping a corner in the surface. The best, most filled out casts come out with a little frost on them, sharp corners on base , grease grooves and no wrinkles.
If your getting fins then your mold is warped, not closing fully or the sprue plate is not flat or tight.
Pure lead shrinks about 3 percent when it solidifies and does not fill out as well as lead tin alloy. Lead/tin/ antimony shrinks less and will be present in any wheel weights.
Most mold sizes are dimension-ed on the shrinkage of lead/tin alloy ratio of 25 to 1.
For pistol bullets I use lots of range lead or Wheel weights and they drop about 12 BHN. Pure lead will be a bit less than 5 BHN.
Lead tin alloy casts well but looses hardness over a years time unless kept in a freezer that will slow the hardness loss a bit where as lead/tin/antimony will hold it's BHN number well for years on the shelf. I have some in cans I cast 20 years ago that are within to points of as hard as when cast.
A good bullet caster can turn out 500 grain bullets with a plus or minus weigh of one grain.

 

[Dundee]

Are you discarding the first dozen or so? Maybe the mold hasn't heated up yet?

yes I discarded probably the first twenty casts or more because of how picky I am. if a cast bullet so much as looks at me wrong it goes back to the pot. needless to say I am absurdly picky about what I let cool down.

 

[Dundee]

I would try pure lead and see. Casting can be tricky, did quite a bit back in the 70s.

777 would get you the velocity you seem to want or is working for you. 45 grains in a ROA is a heck of a lot and my guess is you are fighting compression of the powder as well as the diameters.

777 is reported to not like compression so you have to watch that. I seem to do better with the powders that fill a chamber more (Pyro P, RS and GOEX).

You can try a Mag Spark kit, you get a boost of velocity with the 209 primers, less powder.

I have had lead balls up to 1200 fps without lead in the barrell.

I'll give the pure lead a shot seeings how I've never had problems before I tried to combine wheel weights. 45g is a lot but the .457 conicals loaded fine. even loaded with 50g for one shot for the heck of it with the 255 g conicals. I'll research 777 and see about using it. Is that brand as corrosive as pyrodex?

 

[Dundee]

A couple of things I would ask.
1. Have you properly smoked the molds?
2. Are you following a consistent casting cadence ?
3. Are you getting the molds completely closed each time or is some lead stuck on the mold face preventing this?
4. Do you have and use a good lead thermometer ? I like at least 750 F. of the melt and warming up the mold in the melt by dipping a corner in the surface. The best, most filled out casts come out with a little frost on them, sharp corners on base , grease grooves and no wrinkles.
If your getting fins then your mold is warped, not closing fully or the sprue plate is not flat or tight.
Pure lead shrinks about 3 percent when it solidifies and does not fill out as well as lead tin alloy. Lead/tin/ antimony shrinks less and will be present in any wheel weights.
Most mold sizes are dimension-ed on the shrinkage of lead/tin alloy ratio of 25 to 1.
For pistol bullets I use lots of range lead or Wheel weights and they drop about 12 BHN. Pure lead will be a bit less than 5 BHN.
Lead tin alloy casts well but looses hardness over a years time unless kept in a freezer that will slow the hardness loss a bit where as lead/tin/antimony will hold it's BHN number well for years on the shelf. I have some in cans I cast 20 years ago that are within to points of as hard as when cast.
A good bullet caster can turn out 500 grain bullets with a plus or minus weigh of one grain.

1. yes i have smoked and lubricated the mold
2. I try my best to keep my casting very consistent.
3. i know the molds are getting closed. no fins, no wrinkles, no excess lead under spur plate.
4. I don't have a thermometer. wish i did, but all of my casts come out frosted with very sharp corners and completely filled out lube grooves and no sign of wrinkles.

 

[UXCZ]

It's great that you're experimenting with casting your own conicals! However, there are a few issues you're encountering that need to be addressed:

1. Inconsistent bullet diameters: This could be due to various factors such as inconsistent lead temperature, mold temperature, or pouring technique. Make sure the lead is fully melted and stirred, preheat the mold, and pour at a steady rate.

2. Hard to load conicals: If the conicals are too large, it can cause difficulty in loading. You can try adjusting the alloy mix or slightly increasing the mold temperature to make them a bit smaller.

3. Accuracy issues: Inconsistent bullet diameters can definitely affect accuracy. Additionally, different powders and loads can perform differently with conicals. Triple 7 powder is generally recommended for conicals, but Pyrodex P could also be worth a try.

4. Powder selection: Pyrodex RS is indeed not the ideal powder for conicals. Triple 7 powder is often recommended, but Pyrodex P could also work. Experiment with different loads to find the best option for your setup.

5. High point of impact: This is common with conicals due to their weight and shape.

 

[gunpa]

Triple 7 is nowhere near as corrosive as Pyrodex. I say that from experience. Try pure lead also.

 

[M. De Land]

1. yes i have smoked and lubricated the mold
2. I try my best to keep my casting very consistent.
3. i know the molds are getting closed. no fins, no wrinkles, no excess lead under spur plate.
4. I don't have a thermometer. wish i did, but all of my casts come out frosted with very sharp corners and completely filled out lube grooves and no sign of wrinkles.

Do you mic your casts in exactly the place each time and have you weight checked them for consistency? I'm scratching my head with your results and wonder if your mold has been cut out of round.

 

[ZUG]

I would talk to the mold maker FIRST and tell him of your issues. I would use a cylinder loading tool that loads the cylinder off the revolver. I would cast with pure lead - no blends with wheel weights or other such hardeners. Good luck.

 

[rodwha]

Okay, several things, first of all what powder measure are you using to weigh out 45 and 50 grns of powder to fit under that bullet? It’s common that reproduction .44’s run about 38-40 grns max with a ball, and the Ruger holds a few more grains more. With my old rifle measure I got 45 grns of 3F Triple 7 behind a ball and was close enough to maxed out, and it weighed ~2.5 grns more than what it showed when I weighed 3F Olde Eynsford charges. My new scale throws what it shows when using 3F Olde E.

As to powders it looks like you’re looking for the sporting grade or more energetic powders. Olde Eynsford may not be back in production yet, but there’s Triple 7, and there’s Swiss here in the US. There’s a French and a South American powder that are also quite powerful but uncommon.

There was a fellow who tested Pyrodex P, Triple 7, and a black powder. Pyrodex was horrible (I have my own story), black powder was bad, but T7 hardly left much on its plate of steel in the garage for a week in the summer heat and humidity. It still will corrode though, apparently it just takes longer. It left minor damage in that week, but damage nonetheless. Having had issues with a gun left overnight and talking about it I was pointed to a gem in that you can use an oil such as Ballistol and swab the barrel and chambers and blast inside the openings and it’ll sit for quite some time. I tested it myself in my south Texas garage for a week during the summer.

As to T7 having any issues with compression comes from cartridge loading. Their prior instructions were quite clear that when loading cartridges it required such light compression, whereas with muzzleloaders it said to seat firmly upon the powder charge. It says right there to duplicate the performance of black powder you should reduce by 10% (comparing to common weak powers), it has nothing to do with safety. It would tell you on the bottle right there if it were so hazardous as to require light loads. It’s a volume for volume equivalent that’s sporting grade.

In testing on another now dead forum a fellow tested 30 grns with various powders including these 3. Swiss has always barely nudged out Olde Eynsford but is much more consistent and some say more accurate in rifles. T7 is a close 3rd for power but is less consistent. I’ve seen some testing with Pyrodex that shows it rather weak and some that show it running with this group. I hate it.

I have several of his 255 grn version when I bought his 240 grn version instead and liked them. Also got a few .36 cal to try as I was itching for one at the time. It still itches a bit…

 

[Bad Karma]

any clue to why there is such a wide range in diameter in my casts? never had that problem casting pure lead so maybe i just need to stick to that. also I've heard of swiss but never seen it for sale or any true black powder. always gotten goex or graff and sons from the club. where can i find some other true bp

I’m not sure about that. One thing I don’t do is drop the discards into the pot at least not until I’ve completed casting. I’d noticed weight variations when I was doing that. Also, yes, go back to clean pure lead or at most an alloy like 30:1 or even 40:1. I use those alloys a lot for muzzleloading rifles and they cast very well making beautiful consistent bullets.
Swiss powder is available from most of the online powder houses. Buffalo Arms has it, Grafs, Powderinc, Maine powder house, Back Creek Gun shop. A number of others I’m forgetting right now.

 

[rodwha]

I forgot to mention having an oversized bullet is unnecessary, you need that with a ball to create a bearing surface for a friction fit.

 

[45man]

An alloy of lead like WW's will cast larger. Stay with pure lead. I hunt with my OA and use a pure ball with 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for 1102 fps and it kills deer as good as any other gun but is not accurate at 50 because the twist is wrong for a rb. Since a conical is longer I don't know how in the world you can get 45 gr of anything behind it.
It is true that 777 does not like compression and results show it with any ML as well as a BPCR. Pyrodex needs some but all shots need the same amount or it will vary velocities. BP does not care how much.
I cast pure at 800 but that it too hot for WW's. The hotter the mold the more out of round a hard bullet will be. Mold cavities do not expand like a hole it solid metal, they are two halves.

 

[rodwha]

An alloy of lead like WW's will cast larger. Stay with pure lead. I hunt with my OA and use a pure ball with 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for 1102 fps and it kills deer as good as any other gun but is not accurate at 50 because the twist is wrong for a rb. Since a conical is longer I don't know how in the world you can get 45 gr of anything behind it.
It is true that 777 does not like compression and results show it with any ML as well as a BPCR. Pyrodex needs some but all shots need the same amount or it will vary velocities. BP does not care how much.
I cast pure at 800 but that it too hot for WW's. The hotter the mold the more out of round a hard bullet will be. Mold cavities do not expand like a hole it solid metal, they are two halves.

I agree there’s no way to get that much powder under that bullet, closer to 30 grns which is what Mr Belliveau used in his testing with Goex and that bullet.

I don’t know, I haven’t experienced erratic pressures or any other issue from compressing Triple7, my groups are about identical to my Olde Eynsford loads. Many others have great results with it as well. My experience is mostly with my revolvers as my rifle doesn’t like much of anything I’ve tried so far, thinking of trying 2F among other things.

 

[M. De Land]

Okay, several things, first of all what powder measure are you using to weigh out 45 and 50 grns of powder to fit under that bullet? It’s common that reproduction .44’s run about 38-40 grns max with a ball, and the Ruger holds a few more grains more. With my old rifle measure I got 45 grns of 3F Triple 7 behind a ball and was close enough to maxed out, and it weighed ~2.5 grns more than what it showed when I weighed 3F Olde Eynsford charges. My new scale throws what it shows when using 3F Olde E.

As to powders it looks like you’re looking for the sporting grade or more energetic powders. Olde Eynsford may not be back in production yet, but there’s Triple 7, and there’s Swiss here in the US. There’s a French and a South American powder that are also quite powerful but uncommon.

There was a fellow who tested Pyrodex P, Triple 7, and a black powder. Pyrodex was horrible (I have my own story), black powder was bad, but T7 hardly left much on its plate of steel in the garage for a week in the summer heat and humidity. It still will corrode though, apparently it just takes longer. It left minor damage in that week, but damage nonetheless. Having had issues with a gun left overnight and talking about it I was pointed to a gem in that you can use an oil such as Ballistol and swab the barrel and chambers and blast inside the openings and it’ll sit for quite some time. I tested it myself in my south Texas garage for a week during the summer.

As to T7 having any issues with compression comes from cartridge loading. Their prior instructions were quite clear that when loading cartridges it required such light compression, whereas with muzzleloaders it said to seat firmly upon the powder charge. It says right there to duplicate the performance of black powder you should reduce by 10% (comparing to common weak powers), it has nothing to do with safety. It would tell you on the bottle right there if it were so hazardous as to require light loads. It’s a volume for volume equivalent that’s sporting grade.

In testing on another now dead forum a fellow tested 30 grns with various powders including these 3. Swiss has always barely nudged out Olde Eynsford but is much more consistent and some say more accurate in rifles. T7 is a close 3rd for power but is less consistent. I’ve seen some testing with Pyrodex that shows it rather weak and some that show it running with this group. I hate it.

I have several of his 255 grn version when I bought his 240 grn version instead and liked them. Also got a few .36 cal to try as I was itching for one at the time. It still itches a bit…

I'm confused, are you weighing black powder/ substitutes or measuring it. It should be the later with either. Weigh the bullets/ball, measure the diameter but always volumetric-ally measure black powder or substitutes.

 

[rodwha]

I'm confused, are you weighing black powder/ substitutes or measuring it. It should be the later with either. Weigh the bullets/ball, measure the diameter but always volumetric-ally measure black powder or substitutes.

I measure by volume and then weighed the black powder charges to see what they in comparison to the markings. The T7 uses the same volumetric setting.