Kibler barrel lug drilling/ relief cuts...

[wiscoaster]

I wonder if there's Latin for "better to be wrong and get the job done, rather than to be right and not get it done."

 

[FlinterNick]

Hello all!
When building my Kibler Colonial, I felt I "cobbed " it, in that I was totally unable to make the relief cuts on the barrel pin lugs. I ended up just using the drilled holes figuring I would get back to them....
Now I am preparing to get started on my SMR, and thinking....lets get this figured out first (the relief cuts, that is). I cant be the only one out there cursing those durn things. I obtained a "jewelers saw", and blades, but progress was minimal and it seemed like the hard way of doing things. My brother in law says he could put it on his milling machine and accomplish it, but that seems overkill, and he is busy enough with his own projects.
Are there alternatives to using the jewelers saw? Can they be simply over size drilled slightly and accomplish the same thing? Are there files that small, I havent been able to find? Or dont worry about it at all? I totally understand the potential of the wood swelling/drying, changing the alignment, etc.
Thanks.

I use watchmakers files for my dovetails, sometimes called escapement files. They are about half the thickness of a regular need file found at a hobby store. They’re Swiss patten, number 2, 4, 6 and 8 cuts you can find them at any jewelery supply store.

 

[FlinterNick]

Hello all!
When building my Kibler Colonial, I felt I "cobbed " it, in that I was totally unable to make the relief cuts on the barrel pin lugs. I ended up just using the drilled holes figuring I would get back to them....
Now I am preparing to get started on my SMR, and thinking....lets get this figured out first (the relief cuts, that is). I cant be the only one out there cursing those durn things. I obtained a "jewelers saw", and blades, but progress was minimal and it seemed like the hard way of doing things. My brother in law says he could put it on his milling machine and accomplish it, but that seems overkill, and he is busy enough with his own projects.
Are there alternatives to using the jewelers saw? Can they be simply over size drilled slightly and accomplish the same thing? Are there files that small, I havent been able to find? Or dont worry about it at all? I totally understand the potential of the wood swelling/drying, changing the alignment, etc.
Thanks.

A jewlers saw seems like it would be complicated to do.

I would escapement files they work very well, and get the job done

shop made tools work the best too, i also take blank gravers and grind them to the shape i need sharpen and use them as a type of broach cutting tool.

 

[geb324]

Look for swiss needle files

 

[Eric Krewson]

Yep, 1/16" diamond bit, zip, zip done, 3 seconds tops.

I bought this set for about $5, it might have been at Harbor Freight, I can't remember. I use the round ones in the middle for touching up inletting, the duller they get the more I like them for working wood. Disclaimer; I have been a power decoy carver and know my way around a Dremel.

I use the bit on the far left.

 

[user 34300]

I too use the dremil. I have a bunch of carbide burrs from an old dentist. Be real careful with the dremil. IT tends to not cut a straight slot. I find that using the non cutting part of the shaft as a guide against he bottom flat helps a lot. Be careful not to mess up the bottom flat. Once the slot is wide enough I clean it up with a flat needle file IF you have never done this I suggest practicing on a piece of scrap steel.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

For those jewelers saw blades to work at their best they have to be under tension. That is why they are used in conjunction with a spring style frame to hold and apply tension to the blade. I can't see where just using the blade by holding it in your hands is going to be of much use. To my way of thinking there would be a LOT of frustration doing it that way.

Agree!! I fail to see any issue with using a jeweler's saw! Got to have a tight blade that can control the direction you want to cut. Using eye magnification is extreemly helpful in keeping track of the cut.
Larry

 

[ZUG]

YEOW --- I just looked up "escapement files" and found two sources - one is McMaster Carr - price for ONE is $29.11 and the other source is

Glardon-Vallorbe Escapement Files - Set Of 12 - Cut 4 Fine​

Part # 131.771

Current price$181.00

Original price$218.10

Both are WAY too rich for my pocket!!!. I'll stick with the ubiquitous humble Jewler saw thank you very much.

 

[James Kibler]

A jewelers saw works well. It’s really pretty quick. I’m sure I show it in some build videos.

For forward pins you need at least1/16” fore and aft of the hole. Slightly more is better. The problem with filling is that you’re unlikely to file this amount as it’s a tedious task

 

[Daveboone]

Thanks guys, a lot of information here. I am thinking perhaps the cheap manure saw I bought initially may be a big part of the problem.
Any recommendations on a good quality saw that wont break the bank? I find them ....jeesh from a few bucks (junk of course) to a hundred bucks and more, which is tough to justify for the few times it would be used.

 

[DCAN]

Thanks guys, a lot of information here. I am thinking perhaps the cheap manure saw I bought initially may be a big part of the problem.
Any recommendations on a good quality saw that wont break the bank? I find them ....jeesh from a few bucks (junk of course) to a hundred bucks and more, which is tough to justify for the few times it would be used.

If memory serves, I got mine from Track of the Wolf. Might look on Kibler's web site too.

 

[Snooterpup]

I wonder if there's Latin for "better to be wrong and get the job done, rather than to be right and not get it done."

No but as Plato said:
“negotium recte facias, noli jejunare et pauper”
(Do the task correctly, not fast or poor.)

 

[FlinterNick]

YEOW --- I just looked up "escapement files" and found two sources - one is McMaster Carr - price for ONE is $29.11 and the other source is

Glardon-Vallorbe Escapement Files - Set Of 12 - Cut 4 Fine​

Part # 131.771

Current price$181.00

Original price$218.10

Both are WAY too rich for my pocket!!!. I'll stick with the ubiquitous humble Jewler saw thank you very much.

That’s for the sets, they run around 15-25 each I only use the flat, and triangle shaped. They sell them with safe edges
too.

FYI I use these for dovetail edges, not to remove the bulk of the dovetail cut, for that i use a hacksaw small blade bi-metal, i only cut to the depth of the teeth, and check myself every few cuts.

James Turpin has a DVD that shows it in great detail, i’m sure Jim Kibler or others also have it on you-tube, lots of great learning tools out there.

 

[sturmkatze]

YEOW --- I just looked up "escapement files" and found two sources - one is McMaster Carr - price for ONE is $29.11 and the other source is

Glardon-Vallorbe Escapement Files - Set Of 12 - Cut 4 Fine​

Part # 131.771

Current price$181.00

Original price$218.10

Both are WAY too rich for my pocket!!!. I'll stick with the ubiquitous humble Jewler saw thank you very much.

Go to antique marts. I find cheap tools there all the time

 

[Hatchet-Jack]

I was having trouble controlling my jewelers saw cuts. It would just go off course. Then my teacher had a look at my saw. Turns out my blade wasn't nearly tight enough. He showed me how to tighten it like your tuning the E string on a violin. Loosen the back wing nut as much as you can, put the blade in the blade clamps, tighten the clamps, then tighten the wing nut. Also make sure you have at least 3 or 4 teeth cutting the thickness of your metal. In other words lay the blade across the metal and see if your going to have 3 or more teeth cutting at all times.

If you don't want to use a jewelers saw to cut the slots drill a series of holes then use a jewelers file to finish the slot.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Thanks guys, a lot of information here. I am thinking perhaps the cheap manure saw I bought initially may be a big part of the problem.
Any recommendations on a good quality saw that wont break the bank? I find them ....jeesh from a few bucks (junk of course) to a hundred bucks and more, which is tough to justify for the few times it would be used.

Here ya go! On line
Larry

T

 

[yellowhammer]

I wonder if there's Latin for "better to be wrong and get the job done, rather than to be right and not get it done."

Iniquum perfecit negotium melius quam perfectum opus incompletum.

Not sure I agree with the premise, though. My old dad would always say, paraphrasing "Don't even start it unless you intend to do a good job; ultimately you will be judged by the quality of your work".

 

[waksupi]

Could you maybe share a link to the research report?

What follows I have posted before and is not a research report, just documentation of my experience with one gunstock. Below is a photograph of an unfired, CVA factory made Kentucky Rifle with a two piece stock stored 40 plus years in a humidity controlled environment (Heat/AC plus dehumidifier in the safe). I had assumed that the stock length shrunk over time, but your research report (that I have not seen) says that isn’t possible. If I remove the pins from the assembly the two piece stock easily slides back together (I did provide clearance between the stock and the nose cap which has screws holding it to the barrel), but with the pins in place it’s impossible to close the gap, as the gun was when new. How do I tighten or close up the gap between the two pieces of the stock without the unnecessary slotting of the holes in the tenons the pins pass through? My solution was going to be slotting the holes in the tenons so the stock would free to move over time without opening up a gap between the two pieces. But the report you read says this is not necessary, so what solution do you suggest?

That was most likely intended during the manufacturing, although it is much more than needed. Like on a lever action or schuetzen rifle, a slight bit of play is needed for best accuracy in two piece stocks, due to the wood expansion problem. Like the much cussed and discussed "clean out screw", they are most likely simply an expedient to do it as fast and as cheap as possible.

 

[waksupi]

A tip on using jewelers saws, lubricate your blade. I have a stick of ski wax on the bench I use, but a light oil is also good.

 

[wiscoaster]

Iniquum perfecit negotium melius quam perfectum opus incompletum.

Not sure I agree with the premise, though. My old dad would always say, paraphrasing "Don't even start it unless you intend to do a good job; ultimately you will be judged by the quality of your work".

Yes, maybe I should have worded it: "better to be wrong and get the job done right, than to be right and not get it done at all."

My thinking is that process and result aren't necessarily always equivalent. Usually there's only one "right" result, but multiple processes to get that result. What's the "right" process "by the book" isn't the only process that produces the result. Well, enough of my philosophy for the day ... I've got to get cracking and get some "results".