Kibler Brown Bess?

[waksupi]

You are right, but that's true for all of Kibler's kits. The historical origins for all of Kibler's firearms can be located east of the Mississippi. About 70% of the population in the US lives east of the Mississippi. Another reason we see so few Brown Bess reproductions out here might be that the reproductions available to us are pretty poor.

The majority of the rifles that found their way west during the fur trade era were made east of the Mississippi. A nicely balanced flintlock rifle can always find a home out here, a heavy Brown Bess or Charlesville, not so much.
I agree about any of the imported guns, regardless of the supplier.

 

[French Colonial]

I think that hunting in the west with a Bess would be limited to timbered areas, open plains, not so much.

I do not think many buffalo hunters used a smoothbore.

 

[Grenadier1758]

If I recall correctly, shortened Besses were favored as guns for running buffalo. With that large bore, a mouthful of ball to spit a ball down the bore after pouring the powder directly from the horn down the muzzle, a touch hole large enough to allow the powder to fill the covered pan, a slap on the but to settle the ball in the fouled barrel, and a quick shot before the ball rolled too far as one's horse ran next to a buffalo. Then off to chase another buffalo.

Not exactly safe, but certainly exciting.

Smoothbored guns were also favored for the camp workers in the trapping brigades.

 

[Leatherbark]

Imagine being woken up by a bunch of Indians looking for hair because the guy on watch fell asleep. You're probably going to go under shortly, so you grab your Bess loaded with buck and ball. You already have the bayonet on it because you are cautious. Blast one to the happy hunting ground and defend against the knives and tomahawks with a 5-foot musket with an 18-inch pigsticker of cold sharp steel. Or use the slim long rifle with the soon to be bent barrel as a club.

Bob

 

[Clark Badgett]

I’m referring to the commercial third models that were commonly traded. These were not the specific military Bess’ but were often used on the frontiers in the 1820 era

I do know the US government bought commercial 1793 Bess copies, circa 1799-1801. They were marked Tower and had no other British markings (maybe commercial proofs). There were 9500 bought. I’ll need to go see if they were standard bore size or not, but it seems they probably were as the Marines felt the heavier ball carried better in the winds at sea. They also preferred the shorter 39” barrels and brass furnishings. The final remaining “English pattern” guns in the stores here were transferred to the Navy Department in 1816.

 

[tnek13]

Yes I would buy one - I trust that Jim would make an accurate historically correct model of what ever he chooses to produce - Short Land? Hopefully he would chose the BEST model the British ever produced in the time frame he feels is most appropriate.

 

[billraby]

I think it is easier to learn how to build guns yourself than it is to talk someone else into manufacturing the exact one that you want. Mr Kibler is likely to produce whatever kits he is most interested in.

 

[Clark Badgett]

……….

 

[oreclan]

Which long land? There were 4 versions and 1 transition.

I have a long land model marked "Cookes 1729" made by Jim Everett and I use it for all periods of 18th Century reenacting.
I also own an original musket marked "Grice 175?" with a "pointed" brass side plate that I would like to know more about. Phil Craevner restored it for me.

 

[sportster73hp]

I think it is easier to learn how to build guns yourself than it is to talk someone else into manufacturing the exact one that you want. Mr Kibler is likely to produce whatever kits he is most interested in.

Being the business man and looking toward the nations birthday Jim is or should be thinking of which models would be here for the fighting. Short land possibly, third model or India pattern not.

 

[oreclan]

I don’t disagree and the differences were not major, but the 1769 went out of proportion in 1777 with the new model of that year taking its place. The 1777 was made in massive volumes for the times, was even contracted in Belgium and was the late war musket.

Most reenactors wouldn't recognize the difference and wouldn't care as long they could acquire an accurate model at a reasonable price.
An earlier model that covers F&I as well as the AWI would sell better.
As an old reenactor who started in 1974, I have owned a Miroku, that I built from a kit, a Pedersoli, and a custom built long land pattern. My favorite was the Miroku. I wish I still owned it.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Most reenactors wouldn't recognize the difference and wouldn't care as long they could acquire an accurate model at a reasonable price.
An earlier model that covers F&I as well as the AWI would sell better.
As an old reenactor who started in 1974, I have owned a Miroku, that I built from a kit, a Pedersoli, and a custom built long land pattern. My favorite was the Miroku. I wish I still owned it.

Of all groups, reenactors SHOULD know and care about the differences. 1730 or 1742 muskets would be largely worn out by 1777.

 

[FlinterNick]

Of all groups, reenactors SHOULD know and care about the differences. 1730 or 1742 muskets would be largely worn out by 1777.

Yeap, those early patterns left over in storage were used in the early fighting.

Bess’s dated 1724-1748 were in storage and in militia use 1774 to late 1776, Boston Camp-gain, Ticonderoga, Invasion of Quebec, Long Island, Manhattan, the retreat through NJ, Trenton, Princeton possibly brandywine, frontier fighting etc. maybe the first siege of Charleston and Dunmore’s evacuation of VA.

The only true Bess pattern that cover’s all periods is the P1756 from Boston to Yorktown, as some of these would have been used on both sides. (Loyalists). Some people say the P1748 was used heavily, however i have my doubts about that claim as even collectors don’t identify it as a true pattern since so few were made.

The short land pattern 1769 also with some updates through 1778.

 

[IL Rifle]

Yeap, those early patterns left over in storage were used in the early fighting.

Bess’s dated 1724-1748 were in storage and in militia use 1774 to late 1776, Boston Camp-gain, Ticonderoga, Invasion of Quebec, Long Island, Manhattan, the retreat through NJ, Trenton, Princeton possibly brandywine, frontier fighting etc. maybe the first siege of Charleston and Dunmore’s evacuation of VA.

The only true Bess pattern that cover’s all periods is the P1756 from Boston to Yorktown, as some of these would have been used on both sides. (Loyalists). Some people say the P1748 was used heavily, however i have my doubts about that claim as even collectors don’t identify it as a true pattern since so few were made.

The short land pattern 1769 also with some updates through 1778.

Or Jim could reproduce a Committee of Safety musket. That wouldn’t be as tied to a specific year pattern of Bess. While most were close copies of a Bess a CoS musket would offer a little more flexibility in the stock shape and fittings. Loyalist reenactors could claim a captured weapon.

 

[IL Rifle]

Imagine being woken up by a bunch of Indians looking for hair because the guy on watch fell asleep. You're probably going to go under shortly, so you grab your Bess loaded with buck and ball. You already have the bayonet on it because you are cautious. Blast one to the happy hunting ground and defend against the knives and tomahawks with a 5-foot musket with an 18-inch pigsticker of cold sharp steel. Or use the slim long rifle with the soon to be bent barrel as a club.

Bob

Our family has had an 1826 dated Harper’s Ferry M1816 in the locker since the early 1950s when my dad was given the musket be some friends. Sometime prior to that it was converted to percussion (armory conversion) its barrel was rifled (1850s rebuild?) and it was shortened about 12 inches. There is ramrod wear thinning on one side of the barrel, the rifling is very faint and worn and some lead shot embedded in the stock. It could have been a “night perimeter defense weapon” somewhere out west in its day or a settler’s shotgun.

So, it’s not inconceivable that Besses made their way west as settler’s shotguns or camp guns.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Double post

 

[Clark Badgett]

Yeap, those early patterns left over in storage were used in the early fighting.

Bess’s dated 1724-1748 were in storage and in militia use 1774 to late 1776, Boston Camp-gain, Ticonderoga, Invasion of Quebec, Long Island, Manhattan, the retreat through NJ, Trenton, Princeton possibly brandywine, frontier fighting etc. maybe the first siege of Charleston and Dunmore’s evacuation of VA.

The only true Bess pattern that cover’s all periods is the P1756 from Boston to Yorktown, as some of these would have been used on both sides. (Loyalists). Some people say the P1748 was used heavily, however i have my doubts about that claim as even collectors don’t identify it as a true pattern since so few were made.

The short land pattern 1769 also with some updates through 1778.

I would personally say the 1748 could be considered a separate pattern since the rammer was a major improvement, which seems to be what differentiates the patterns. I don’t feel as if a minor part modification should determine a pattern though. Eric Goldstein does a good job explaining such in his little book. And I think there were only around 5000ish of the 1748 made before the 1756 came along.

I’m not even certain if there is much documentation to the 1748 making it here for the F&I.

The 1756 would get the most milage as, like you said it was produced for the entire war, was here from the start of hostilities and even stayed in production after the war ended.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

I have a long land model marked "Cookes 1729" made by Jim Everett and I use it for all periods of 18th Century reenacting.
I also own an original musket marked "Grice 175?" with a "pointed" brass side plate that I would like to know more about. Phil Craevner restored it for me.

I read this as “Cookies 1729” lol

 

[FlinterNick]

Or Jim could reproduce a Committee of Safety musket. That wouldn’t be as tied to a specific year pattern of Bess. While most were close copies of a Bess a CoS musket would offer a little more flexibility in the stock shape and fittings. Loyalist reenactors could claim a captured weapon.

If you mean by a neutral musket, i think that’s ok. However, there are no real COS patterns to follow, they’re all so very different, i woudln’t. COS muskets are often miss understood by reinactors too, its almost become an adnasuem terminology for describing an Italian, Japanese or Indian made musket so that they can say its different.

Many of the so called COS muskets I’ve seen in museums look like they were made in a weekend, real junk.

 

[brushblind]

I thought he was going to do a Hawken next?