Kibler Hawken update,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

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If you don't like the way that Mr Kibler did the rifle, then build one yourself and get exactly what you want.
I get the sentiment, but that’s not always a practical or fair response. Building a rifle from scratch—or even assembling a kit—requires time, tools, skills, and experience that not everyone has. People buy from Kibler precisely because he has a reputation for high-quality work, and if someone has a concern or preference about a rifle they paid (or are going to pay) for, it’s reasonable for them to voice it. Customer feedback is how craftsmen refine their work, and discussing pros and cons doesn’t mean someone is ungrateful—it just means they care about the details.

I’ll admit it’s probably too early in the game, with too many unknowns, to start tearing Kibler’s Hawken apart. But when did respecting someone and their business mean you have to agree with everything they say or do? Healthy discussion and critique are part of what pushes craftsmanship forward, no?
 
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I really hope he offers it with a 1-66 twist.

I have always felt the 1-48 was a compromise that would shoot balls are bullets but did neither as well as a barrel designed for a particular round
 
From my perspective, the term “generic” Hawken, or plains rifle, does not hold any derogatory connotations. The Kibler Hawken is not a bench copy of any particular rifle, but rather he’s taken aspects of original rifles and melded them into what he sees as a better Hawken, or a generic representation of a Hawken.
I don't think you understand. What I aim to produce is the best designed and most finely crafted 1850's Hawken styled rifle kits ever produced. I'm certain we'll achieve this goal. So, since I'm not copying an original this becomes "generic" in a derogatory sense? I'm pretty sure, I can defend the vast majority if not all design choices from a historical correctness perspective.

It’s growing on me and I have no doubt it will be an extremely well engineered rifle, with careful attention to details and components that work together flawlessly. Nicely done!
-Steve
 
Regarding spelling;
If they find out you are a spelling Natzi, they will misspell it on purpose.
I find misspelled words rather charming.
If you have read any of Mark Twain’s comments on the subject you might agree.
I propose Hawkenett as the new standard. Perhaps Hawkser?
What about Huckster for Huckleberry Finn ?
 
In fairness and honesty, I did not thoroughly read every comment/post on this thread. I did a cursory scroll through. With that said:

Any new product that generates interest in traditional muzzleloading is a good thing. If this offering takes off and gets some to ditch the unmentionable and join our fold, great. If it causes others to gain even more interest in original Hawken or Plains Rifles, great.

If it brings more traditional muzzleloading hunters to our fold, even better.

A kit is just that. You have a foundation to work with and based on your patience and abilities you can customize that kit somewhat to suit your personal, historical, or authenticity needs. Real, perceived, and imagined.
Well said.
Thanks for posting.
 
We are going to have a live youtube video on Saturday February 1st. With this style you can type in comments or questions during the video and we'll try to answer them. The upcoming Hawken should be a great topic as well as anything else associated with our business including future gun kits, accessories etc. Should be fun! Hope to see you there. Here is the link:

https://youtube.com/live/ZquSVEcsd_I?feature=share
Says 1:00 pm EST….please correct me if that’s wrong…. I plan on showing up there to cheer you on….you’re a brave man wading into the “Hawken” swamp with so many ill tempered dinosaurs lurking to take your limbs off.
 
Books;
1)Great Gunmakers for the Early West…JimGordon 3 volume set volume III has Hawken pictures….this is the book Kibler was flipping through.

2)The Hawken Rifle (it’s evolution from 1822-1870) Bob Woodfill

3) The Hawken Rifle It’s Place in History…Chas. Hanson

Jim Gordon’s book is $350-$500
Excellent. Thank you. I may have to hold off on that one for now. I tracked down a reasonably priced Rifles of Colonial America a while back so I’m a bit tapped for library money.
 
I really hope he offers it with a 1-66 twist.

I have always felt the 1-48 was a compromise that would shoot balls are bullets but did neither as well as a barrel designed for a particular round

I said they last comment would be my last but. . . . . You got me going again. 😀

Twist kinda brings up the barrel supplier question 🤔 Who will be the supplier and how will it be rifled? None of the current suppliers that I'm aware of offer all of the proposed calibers in the traditional 1:48. Will he have barrels produced to his specs? Will he rifle and contour blanks? Will he abandon the 1:48 tradition?

Maybe it will be answered in the utube discussion. Maybe he hasn't decided yet.

The concept of the 1:48 being a " compromise" twist seems to have originated with the TC Hawken but I don't think TC did that as a deliberate decision. It may be said to have been deliberate but I've never seen any real evidence that it was so even notwithstanding having seen many times claimed to be so.
 
Excellent. Thank you. I may have to hold off on that one for now. I tracked down a reasonably priced Rifles of Colonial America a while back so I’m a bit tapped for library money.
There is a copy on eBay for $350…. I have photos of most if not all of the Hawken guns featured in the book…I picked up a 1st edition copy of Joe Kindig’s “ Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle” for $29 ….turns out it was signed by the author….Jim Gordon’s book and museum is the latest greatest version of a Joe Kindig….if you like “Golden Age” American guns…I do.
 
Bring it forth Jim.

We do ourselves and the original builders of this discipline of rifle injustice by saying "They always did this." or "No, they never did that."
None of us were there so we cannot say definitively what was done. We have examples of originals to analyze. From there we can ascertain certain traits of construction and style.
We cannot make an absolute statement on anything related to them.
I'm sure Jim has a better understanding of building a rifle than most of us do and has done his homework.
He is putting forth a rifle that is his interpretation of this particular discipline of rifle that will be a quality kit for his customers to build.

Thank you Jim- bring it forth
 
I get the sentiment, but that’s not always a practical or fair response. Building a rifle from scratch—or even assembling a kit—requires time, tools, skills, and experience that not everyone has. People buy from Kibler precisely because he has a reputation for high-quality work, and if someone has a concern or preference about a rifle they paid (or are going to pay) for, it’s reasonable for them to voice it. Customer feedback is how craftsmen refine their work, and discussing pros and cons doesn’t mean someone is ungrateful—it just means they care about the details.

I’ll admit it’s probably too early in the game, with too many unknowns, to start tearing Kibler’s Hawken apart. But when did respecting someone and their business mean you have to agree with everything they say or do? Healthy discussion and critique are part of what pushes craftsmanship forward, no?
Every time the name Kibler is mentioned there is a whole crowd telling him what to make next and how he should do it. If he posts something on here he gets 50 people telling him to make 50 different things. It must be driving the guy nuts by now. He has gone to the trouble to make a selection of great guns easily available to most people.

If you don't like the way that Mr Kibler did the rifle, then build one yourself and get exactly what you want.

That means that if you are not going to build from scratch, for whatever reason, then be glad that Mr Kibler is making these kits and be happy with what he has to offer.
 
I get what you’re saying—Jim Kibler has done an incredible job making high-quality kits accessible, and it’s understandable that constant requests could get overwhelming. But playing devil’s advocate here, customer input is a big part of any successful business, especially in a niche market like this. If people are asking for different models or features, it’s because they trust Kibler’s craftsmanship and would love to see his take on something they want.

Also, the longrifle community has always been full of people sharing ideas and opinions, whether about historical accuracy, aesthetics, or function. That back-and-forth is part of what keeps the craft alive. Sure, not everyone is going to build from scratch, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t voice what they’d love to see next. After all, without customer feedback, how would we have gotten the Woodsrunner in the first place?

Maybe I’m off my hinges, but this is a forum—if everyone just echoed excitement for the next build without any discussion or ideas, it’d be a pretty dull place. A little debate and speculation keep things interesting… or perhaps that’s just me.
 
Books;
1)Great Gunmakers for the Early West…JimGordon 3 volume set volume III has Hawken pictures….this is the book Kibler was flipping through.

2)The Hawken Rifle (it’s evolution from 1822-1870) Bob Woodfill

3) The Hawken Rifle It’s Place in History…Chas. Hanson

Jim Gordon’s book is $350-$500
And to this list you can add:

The Plains Rifle by Charles Hanson

Hawken Rifles the Mountain Man’s Choice by John Baird.

Fifteen Years in the Hawken Lode by John Baird.

The Baird Mountain Man book, the Bicentennial and the JJ movie sparked my interest in Plains Rifles a long time ago.

Oh yeah, the Baird Mountain Man book has a chapter, 6, on engraved Hawkens. The photo of engraving on a toe plate looks to be the type of engraving Jim mentions in his video.
 
Somebody Call Jim and tell him I'm sitting on the off ramp with my sign, "Will work for Front Stuffers" I'm gonna be so broke in 2025.

Seriously, you Americans are blessed with Jim Kibler and the quality ML kits he's producing; IMHO the price of his kits is bordering on Gift status.

If I'd have relocated to the USA after retiring from the Aussie Army in 2007 as planned; I'd be in absolute Heaven there now buying up the Kibler kits.
We're talking Heirloom quality pieces here guys, dont make the mistake of taking them for granted.
 
I've assembled some of my own, and I've had one done for me. I got no shame in that. Want quality work, pay for it. Simple! 👍

I learned early in life that patient strict budgeting enables a guy to buy quality, I ask you all how many times have we snapped up "a bargain" compromise only to later regret it ?

Do your homework about what era and genre of ML will hold your interest into the future, then research whats available that meets your expectations before tabling the "Benjamins", eternal satisfaction is worth the trouble IMHO.
 
My original J. Hawken halfstock is100% authentic…in fact it was Jacob’s personal rifle for many years….so that’s why I only shoot it during hunting seasons when I get a tag.
Now mind you this personal possession of Jacob’s has been restocked 3 times, rebreeched twice, rebarreled 4 times and reblued once, rebrowned once and restored fully twice and it has had 2 new butt plates and a set of new triggers…I’m 80% sure the ramrod is the original though.
I'm pretty dang proud to own this authentic American heirloom….I’ve even killed American game animals with it too.

Did you find his Sisters phone number on velum underneath the Alloy Butt plate ?
 
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