I have a contemporary gun that is percussion, the lock was clearly a flint lock cut down and modified to percussion. It is a near clone of a gun in the Museum of the Fur Trade. That’s what Kibler should do…sell us that lock plate and a hammer.
Kibler Hawken?
- Thread starter Indy Durtdigger
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Oh boy….more Hawken yakking’…I’ve turned over every possible stone in this Hawken Mythology that is available to “we the public” since the middle 1970s…went museum hopping and a local antique dealer had two for sale that I’d go visit, handle and photograph regularly just to connect with the makers.
I’ve been a diligent student …and disciple.
What I know with certainty is this:
Every Hawken rifle is so different from every other Hawken rifle…up until Jacob died…it’s at that time they take on somewhat “standard” features.
So discussing architectures, calibres, twists, hardware, converted locks, cheek rests, breeches, tangs, sights etc…to decide what is authentic Hawken…has been done ad nauseam…
There is a Hawken out there with your personal Hawken preferences except one…a known flintlock…several that appeared to have been flinters…reason says they existed…but
What ever Kibler comes up with it’ll likely be “authentic” but won’t please everybody.
Example: choose your favorite Hawken cheekrest.
I’ve been a diligent student …and disciple.
What I know with certainty is this:
Every Hawken rifle is so different from every other Hawken rifle…up until Jacob died…it’s at that time they take on somewhat “standard” features.
So discussing architectures, calibres, twists, hardware, converted locks, cheek rests, breeches, tangs, sights etc…to decide what is authentic Hawken…has been done ad nauseam…
There is a Hawken out there with your personal Hawken preferences except one…a known flintlock…several that appeared to have been flinters…reason says they existed…but
What ever Kibler comes up with it’ll likely be “authentic” but won’t please everybody.
Example: choose your favorite Hawken cheekrest.
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Interesting, thanks gor posting.
Antelope Pete
40 Cal
Good post Patched.
It seems that the Hanson's would be astute enough that if there was a no doubt conversion Hawken that they would consider it a flintlock.
It seems that the Hanson's would be astute enough that if there was a no doubt conversion Hawken that they would consider it a flintlock.
I don’t know how they refer to this rifle…(usually by some owners name)
Lots of flintlockesque holes on the lock plate and a drum.
What Kibler goes with we can only speculate…but stock drop, trigger guard and method of attachment, breech appearance etc can be a very wide range….until the Sam rifles with the slant breech and signature scroll guard etc…1848 gold rush guns is what I call em.
I’m in the crowd that cares about the weight. My heavy guns stay home and I’m tired of buying stuff that I don’t end up using. I’m not caliber picky because I only shoot deer and paper targets, but in most cases I buy the largest caliber available just for the weight savings. I’m looking forward to the details of his new hawken kit. I’m definitely interested in buying one.
Illustrating a point …
The bottom rifle is a “gold rush gun”….but has a non slant breech, Golcher lock and the flat full stock style trigger guard…I thought it had a stock fit trigger pull of like 13” for a small guy when I looked down the sights…
Note the extra drop in the stock of the top 2 guns …more “ Virginia/Maryland” style.
I’d like Kibler to use the Montana HS gun (middle) with a tapered barrel 33”…50,54 or 58
The bottom rifle is a “gold rush gun”….but has a non slant breech, Golcher lock and the flat full stock style trigger guard…I thought it had a stock fit trigger pull of like 13” for a small guy when I looked down the sights…
Note the extra drop in the stock of the top 2 guns …more “ Virginia/Maryland” style.
I’d like Kibler to use the Montana HS gun (middle) with a tapered barrel 33”…50,54 or 58
Full stock or half stock on this gun?
Thank you for posting these pics, have not seen them before.
longcruise
70 Cal.
There has been found a Hawken, I think in the Smitty, that is clearly a converted flintlock.
I think the Hanson documentation/book precedes the Smitty discovery.
Rock Home Isle
58 Cal.
I’m convinced that there is a tree somewhere in the Rocky Mountains, with a 1820’s era flintlock Hawken leaning against it. Right where it was left, 205 years ago.
I always wondered why actual original Hawken Brothers’ guns never seem to be found in flintlock. Maybe post some verifiable photographs?
I would love to see an English-style half stock percussion fowler from Kibler. Make it in an 8 bore (.83 caliber) and I’d be all ears.
I feel if you’re building a Hawken replica for yourself…either copy an exact specific rifle or build it with the known documented features you like….this particular rifle may have been converted or repaired with whatever was on hand…that lockplate looks a little over sized for the lock panel it sits in…there are so many possibilities as to why this rifle looks like it does…
Uncle Miltie
50 Cal.
A percussion rifle from Jim Kibler?
Keep holding yer breath on that one. .
Keep holding yer breath on that one. .
Here’s the famous pineapple Smithsonian flintlock conversion rifle
I’ve collected every picture and article I could over the years…it’s convenient to grab something from a computer file…
I’ve seen the makings of fistfights over these “authentic” Hawken discussions …a great disservice was created in the early 1970s by a very small group of “buckskin” fanatics who over inflated Hawken rifle relevance,..their zealous passion to put J&S Hawken rifles pivotally important to the Rocky Mountain fur trade misled the true story.
The short little book by Raymond Thorpe about John Johnston became a movie at the time …Jerimiah Johnson …and the zealot band of buckskin Hawkenphiles was vindicated in their fur trade narrative…
so here we are today…speculating whether to still mount a fur trade flintlock on a gold rush rifle.
I’ve collected every picture and article I could over the years…it’s convenient to grab something from a computer file…
I’ve seen the makings of fistfights over these “authentic” Hawken discussions …a great disservice was created in the early 1970s by a very small group of “buckskin” fanatics who over inflated Hawken rifle relevance,..their zealous passion to put J&S Hawken rifles pivotally important to the Rocky Mountain fur trade misled the true story.
The short little book by Raymond Thorpe about John Johnston became a movie at the time …Jerimiah Johnson …and the zealot band of buckskin Hawkenphiles was vindicated in their fur trade narrative…
so here we are today…speculating whether to still mount a fur trade flintlock on a gold rush rifle.
Kibler is on solid ground having specific and certain “Golden Age” products representing known Americana.
Stepping into the Hawken swamp means he may have to choose which myth and legend he wishes to promote.... the facts lead to the Kit Carson/Jim Bridger/Mariano Modena version of a “win the west” Sam Hawken heavy wagon rifle….
But there are some graceful and slender Maryland/Virginia style J Hawken and J&S Hawken rifles out there too…that could easily wear a flintlock.
I would like him to make a lighter "small game" version of it sometime.
Ya know. My memory isn't flawless but sometime ago Mr K requested to examine some authentic rifles from certain collections. And I do believe there is a blurb in one of his videos from some time ago where he discusses the lock issue. Not positive because it's been a while, but I do think the word percussion and perhaps new lock were involved somewhere.
I'd lay a wager he avoids the uncertain and goes with a period correct rifle based on the ones he chose to examine. Who knows though, a full stock Kibler flint lock Hauchen plains rifle could be in my near future
.
I'd lay a wager he avoids the uncertain and goes with a period correct rifle based on the ones he chose to examine. Who knows though, a full stock Kibler flint lock Hauchen plains rifle could be in my near future
.You are correct.Ya know. My memory isn't flawless but sometime ago Mr K requested to examine some authentic rifles from certain collections. And I do believe there is a blurb in one of his videos from some time ago where he discusses the lock issue. Not positive because it's been a while, but I do think the word percussion and perhaps new lock were involved somewhere.
I'd lay a wager he avoids the uncertain and goes with a period correct rifle based on the ones he chose to examine. Who knows though, a full stock Kibler flint lock Hauchen plains rifle could be in my near future
timetraveler
32 Cal
Don’t be ridiculous, according to Coffins and his followers that would be like a 4 cylinder in a corvette.
Blasphemous!
