Kibler Hawken?

[Gum Slough Muzzleloader]

Never would have thought this would turn into a pages long honest discussion with a good smattering of history. I almost deleted it rather than posting it. BTW folks, another of our esteemed colleagues has started a similar thread apparently with some leaked details and a possible timeline.

What's the title of the thread?
Thanks

I found it

 

[Rudyard]

It is interesting that when Sam Hawken was interviewed for a St. Louis newspaper as one of the early leaders and prominent members of the early St. Louis, he acknowledged that the Ashley Hawken was one of the first rifles that he and Jake built to go out on the plains. Sam never mentioned whether it was a flintlock or percussion lock gun.

Not that its too relevant I made a half stock percussion Hawken then later made a full stocked flint one not trying to prouve any point rather than to pander to the customers fancy. I've done some fairly long & arduous travels in the Canadian Coast range of B C centering on Mount Waddington. first I took pea rifle killed two mule Deer & a Hare. next I took a 451 percussion shot only grouse & hares. then I took a old ex flint double 16 bore left had p' ball' in Case that descent of the Klina Klini took two weeks to reach Knight Inlet Logging camp 'last I took a 490 old rifle for three winged projectile but fed it on swagged Maxis so no patch could cause fire 12 days average trip tine had interesting meetings with large game but wasn't hunting. Tatla lake store to Cumsac creek logging show in Butte Inlet never shot anything just decorated my camps with maxi bullets. Big country last gun Ide choose would be any Hawken .on weight grounds Just Rudyard's view

 

[Rudyard]

In my club, GMLGC, we have several members who have seen many original Hawken Rifles and shown them at the Hawken Classic. They have studied when they built their rifles. They pretty much agree with the conclusions made by Hanson.

Jake Hawken and James Lakenan were pretty well documented as being in the gun repair business. Jake and Sam became partners in 1825. Not many rifles are documented as being made other than the one for Ashley in about 1825. It wasn't until later that the clientele of the Hawken Shop could afford their rifles that cost three to five time the cost of a similar caliber eastern rifle, that the brothers could get past the gun repair business. Pushing innovation, their rifles were produced to use the new percussion cap that was demonstrating improved performance. Because of the cost of a Hawken rifle compared to the factory produced rifles by Leman, Tryon, Deringer and others, the most likely rifle seen rifles would have been from one of the East Coast builders. While there might have been a Hawken at the first Rendezvous, it would have been the only one of about 30 to 50 other rifles and many smooth bored guns. One of the reasons for my decision to build a Deringer rifle in flint for my Mountain Man days. Yes, previously, I did build a later J&S type Hawken. I was much younger and stronger fellow then and toting around that 12 pound rifle wasn't the chore that it is now.

I believe the expression is'' I hear you'' Re the weight factor
.Rudyard

 

[Patched]

It is interesting that when Sam Hawken was interviewed for a St. Louis newspaper as one of the early leaders and prominent members of the early St. Louis, he acknowledged that the Ashley Hawken was one of the first rifles that he and Jake built to go out on the plains. Sam never mentioned whether it was a flintlock or percussion lock gun.

Sam could have given his brother some credit for having the foresight to set up shop in St Louis…Sam only mentioned the Ashley gun leaving first and none of the guns Jacob made before Sam got there…. I’m speculating but Sam rode the coattails of his smarter, more skilled and talented brother…then took credit for the fame of the name….

Here’s a clue…traditionally barrels were signed in handwriting…but when Sam showed up the 2 brothers ordered a barrel stamp…J&S Hawken…Jake dies unexpectedly in 1847 and Sam doesn’t honor him by continuing to use the barrel stamp….apparently Sam grinds the J off and it’s S.Hawken on the barrels….brotherly love.

 

[mikesto44]

If anyone wants to see some original Hawken rifles. There's a fellow at the CLA show in Lexington Kentucky that has quite a nice display of Original Hawkens.

 

[Sagebrush]

I think also those guys were also just genetically a stronger breed of cat.

Genetically?

I think they were just young. We were all tough at that age.

 

[Mike in FL]

After 40 yrs of enjoying front loaders, I still have much to learn. Other than a few books at the library and a few educational discussions/arguments around the fire at rendezvous, there are large gaps that I recently started filling with the internet. Yes, I stay under that rock more often than I crawl out, just prefer it that way.
Percussion caps didn’t make their way to the Midwest until 1830+\- . The rifles we consider Hawken began production in the 20s, wouldn’t it stand to reason that there were flintlocks?

I have always thought so.

 

[longcruise]

Genetically?

I think they were just young. We were all tough at that age.

Yes, we are all pretty much genetically predispositioned to be just as our forefathers were. The difference is lifestyle and modern convenience. They "worked out" all day every day. Most of us don't come close to staying in shape as well as they did without even thinking about it.

And that age thing is a huge factor.

 

[Antelope Pete]

Sam could have given his brother some credit for having the foresight to set up shop in St Louis…Sam only mentioned the Ashley gun leaving first and none of the guns Jacob made before Sam got there…. I’m speculating but Sam rode the coattails of his smarter, more skilled and talented brother…then took credit for the fame of the name….

Here’s a clue…traditionally barrels were signed in handwriting…but when Sam showed up the 2 brothers ordered a barrel stamp…J&S Hawken…Jake dies unexpectedly in 1847 and Sam doesn’t honor him by continuing to use the barrel stamp….apparently Sam grinds the J off and it’s S.Hawken on the barrels….brotherly love.

I believe Jake died in the 1849 St Louis cholera epidemic. It was and is common to change company names as somebody is added or removed, nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[springfield art]

It's true that they've never found a flint Hawken; this is discussed in Bob Woodfill's excellent book on the Hawken. It's surmised he may have made one or more, esp. the bug .69 cal. one to be mounted on a Lewis & Clark riverboat to pick off harassing hostiles up on the river banks. They've never found that one, probably lost to history.

 

[Patched]

I believe Jake died in the 1849 St Louis cholera epidemic. It was and is common to change company names as somebody is added or removed, nothing out of the ordinary.

I should’ve looked up that date with Jake’s death…I agree it was common practice changing names….these business partners were brothers and Sam was added to Jacob's already established business after Sam had tried to establish a gun business in Ohio but left there for some reason.

Maybe it’s my personal take on life or Sam’s old age memory at the Denver newspaper interview…but Jacob is the center and the origin of the very reason we’re even talking about any and all this …hundreds of years later….Sam could have given him some credit …kept the J…or something for his brother that gave him a place in his business and success….seems reasonable to me.

 

[FlaminCrow]

I know we’ve veered off path of the op topic but I am enjoying the distribution of knowledge.
My understanding is Jacob started out building barrels but it was later outsourced. Has anyone found from where/who? Remington was commercially producing barrels for builders at the time. Anyone ever checked their records of shipment?

 

[Patched]

Hopefully Jim Kibler is following this conversation….Jim, go with the Montana Historical Society style extra drop halfstock gun with swappable ignition, tapered big bore barrel and forego the squirrelly maple…and you’ll have a winner.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Hopefully Jim Kibler is following this conversation….Jim, go with the Montana Historical Society style extra drop halfstock gun with swappable ignition, tapered big bore barrel and forego the squirrelly maple…and you’ll have a winner.

He was on the forum yesterday. Probably saw this thread and NOPED his way on to better things to do lol.

 

[Kabulrocks]

I've seen a Gemmer rifle that fits the lighter small game version of the Hawken brothers' plains rifle. It is a 45 caliber rifle proportioned to the smaller caliber.

At the last Hawken Classic, there was a Gemmer rifle just like you described that has been on my mind since “discovering” it. It is the “Mehl” rifle. This particular one was .40 caliber. I intend to study it in much greater detail this year with the goal of building a similar rifle.

 

[Kabulrocks]

Or maybe do a slim half stock Ohio style.

Somebody is missing out by not making a new production kit of the much loved Thompson Center Seneca.