Kibler side effect?

[BillyC]

Once upon a time I worked as a machinist and did some programming of CNC lathes. The process was very time consuming and tedious and it was only a 3 axis machine. Run a piece, make minor changes, run it again, more tweaks trying to speed up production, repeat ad nauseum.
As far s Jim listening to ANYTHING any of us has to say about how to run HIS business, all I have to say is there are some members here with VERY high opinions of their own intelligence and importance.

 

[Wncman]

Jim , will the Hawken style be a flint or percussion gun?

Ha! I've heard this many times. Unfortunately, there is more involved. We will offer a left-handed rifle someday, but it will probably be at least 5 years from now. As with any business we choose to work on the highest demand projects first as this generates more cashflow and allows for more business success and growth. One thing for sure, a growing business devours cash!

The fowler is coming along. Hopefully early next week I'll be running the first fully machined stock. From there, it will need to be refined and other parts will need programmed and made. New products take a LOT of time to develop and the process is very costly.

After the fowler we'll be working on a Hawken style rifle. If anyone has any questions about our business, what we do, how we started, or where we hope to go just ask!

Thanks,
Jim

For my personal use a .62 caliber Tapered barrel, Flint would be nice. .
However I realize you would need to make what the market wants.
Just keep doing what you do.

 

[sportster73hp]

I used to work in a shop with CNC machines. I also admit they were dinosaurs to what Jim is using. One thing I learned is when they got a blink in power outage. Everything was toast, like crash bang boom..
It's not as easy to program as most people think. Plus ours were the old reel to reel programming. Ha ha ha

I believe the tape readers are just NC . Today most programs are written on a separate computer and then loaded into the machine’s memory . A power blink or sometimes a brown-out will mess with the machine.
Most of the time you just power the machine back up or hit reset home it out and hit start. Watch it closely until you are sure it is OK. Sometimes you will need to reload the program and reset your offsets.

 

[James Kibler]

The Hawken style rifle will be a half stock percussion. Thanks!

 

[mikesto44]

Sportster I just know when those tools came down from the tool exchanger and messed up. It would crash into our cast iron housing. That weighed over 800 pounds with authority. It was impressive an the machine was down for a couple of days.

 

[TDM]

I guess most have not had a chance to read Jim's description of the upcoming Hawken. I think it's wonderful and will start saving for my Kibler Hawken fund.

 

[Psycho Mike]

Personally, I think Jim has it right.

He's not running a CVA, Traditions, T/C, Pedersoli or similar...he's essentially running a "mom & pop" (plus a few more these days) and making fantastic products that people want to put together. Sure, they assemble easy enough for most folks who can find both sets of cheeks with their hands to have a decent chance of putting together decently well....but....he also made sure to have enough of a blank canvas there that those of us who are more adventurous can try our hands at customization without putting hundreds of hours of work at risk. Hopefully, my modest skills will finish off what I'm doing as something I can be proud of....it's definitely not "off the shelf" anymore, even if the assembly is pretty straight forward (which also attests to the time put into getting the programming right for the CNC).

Where I'm at, the offerings readily available for kits are the Traditions Frontier or Kentucky (at about 1/2 to 2/3 what I paid for my Colonial kit). Considering what value Jim packs into his kits, I would hope that the "big boys" take notice and improve some of the things that are lacking (hrm...locks especially...hrm).

 

[J.M.Browning]

I liked assembling my Kibler The end result was exactly what I wanted , I'm in track of The Wolf monthly never considered one of their kits . Always looking at their used guns ,never considered a commissioned build way to long of wait at 66 . Jim is good at what he does , I have had passing thoughts of another kit build although I would much rather spend my time shooting & at the reloading bench then assembly of another firearm .

 

[James Kibler]

Personally, I think Jim has it right.

He's not running a CVA, Traditions, T/C, Pedersoli or similar...he's essentially running a "mom & pop" (plus a few more these days) and making fantastic products that people want to put together. Sure, they assemble easy enough for most folks who can find both sets of cheeks with their hands to have a decent chance of putting together decently well....but....he also made sure to have enough of a blank canvas there that those of us who are more adventurous can try our hands at customization without putting hundreds of hours of work at risk. Hopefully, my modest skills will finish off what I'm doing as something I can be proud of....it's definitely not "off the shelf" anymore, even if the assembly is pretty straight forward (which also attests to the time put into getting the programming right for the CNC).

Where I'm at, the offerings readily available for kits are the Traditions Frontier or Kentucky (at about 1/2 to 2/3 what I paid for my Colonial kit). Considering what value Jim packs into his kits, I would hope that the "big boys" take notice and improve some of the things that are lacking (hrm...locks especially...hrm).

Thanks. I'm not sure of our employee count but it's around 15 or 16 not including Katherine and myself, so it's progressed from being what most think of as a mom and pop business. As time progresses my goal is for the business to require Katherine and myself less and less. We still have gaps that need filled, but in time we'll find the right people to help with these.

Interestingly enough, 10 years ago I couldn't care less about business, but that's my focus today as a leader. I spend my free time learning about accounting, business structure, growth etc. I'd have never imagined it... In some ways business can be really addicting. Growth, success and always pushing for more.

 

[Paul Mazan]

Jim , will the Hawken style be a flint or percussion gun?

Jim , will the Hawken style be a flint or percussion gun?

I’m a lefty and tried to purchase from you. You said your left handed customers just shoot right handed guns with little problem , I’m sure they do, we lefties grow up having to adapt to a lot of things. However, it seems to me to be poor business practice to offer left handed custom rifle kits and then tell customers they might be available in five years. It certainly did not impress me! I went elsewhere and if quality and service are good, I won’t be back.

 

[James Kibler]

I’m a lefty and tried to purchase from you. You said your left handed customers just shoot right handed guns with little problem , I’m sure they do, we lefties grow up having to adapt to a lot of things. However, it seems to me to be poor business practice to offer left handed custom rifle kits and then tell customers they might be available in five years. It certainly did not impress me! I went elsewhere and if quality and service are good, I won’t be back.

Poor business practice? Huh? I'm not exactly sure what you are saying in your response, but let me be clear, I don't owe left-handers anything. I sure hope you aren't suggesting that I do. Without apology, I make decisions based on what benefits the company the most. I have no moral obligation to offer particular products. Get real...

Yes, we have many customers who are left-handed and shoot our right-handed rifles. Yes, we will likely offer a left-handed rifle in maybe 5 years or so. What is wrong with either of these statements other than they don't suit your needs?

Am I reading this correctly? Do you really have this sense of entitlement?

Based on your message, I think you've done me a favor by finding someone else to do business with.

 

[beagle74]

Mr. Kibler. I'm a right hander, now where do I send the $$$$$$$$$$$$$ for that fowler???????????

 

[jdw276]

Poor business practice? Huh? I'm not exactly sure what you are saying in your response, but let me be clear, I don't owe left-handers anything. I sure hope you aren't suggesting that I do. Without apology, I make decisions based on what benefits the company the most. I have no moral obligation to offer particular products. Get real...

Yes, we have many customers who are left-handed and shoot our right-handed rifles. Yes, we will likely offer a left-handed rifle in maybe 5 years or so. What is wrong with either of these statements other than they don't suit your needs?

Am I reading this correctly? Do you really have this sense of entitlement?

Based on your message, I think you've done me a favor by finding someone else to do business with.

Building a business is a huge challenge of course. You have to factor many things into your model and make survival decisions. That said for firearms the easiest is to build right handed ones because of the potential market. Keep in mind the market is flooded with right handed guns. Jim, you have found a niche and done very well with it so far. Congrats. The lefty world, I r one, is a pent up demand opportunity. We have to settle for right handed everything. Why? Because everyone builds to the market potential. But there is more potential sell through in the lefty world as there is no product for us. You cannot find lefty guns as we do not resell them. I have 5 modern bolts in lefty, I have 8 lefty muzzys. They are off the market as I will not sell them and always looking for more.

Simple math, we make up 11-12% of the population, get 60% sell through to us, have you sold more or less than if you get 2% sell through in righties. Us lefties will survive. They could not convert us after all these centuries to righties or kill us off as an incarnation of the devil by burning us at the stake. You have a great product, a great business model, i have handled 5 or 6 of your rifles and all are great but I will not buy one. Why because I am old and want something for me. Our market is aging quickly and becoming more and more particular. Old folks have the funds and can be an incredible market segment. As to 5 years, many of us may not be here to see your product and that is disappointing. Congrats and continued success to you and your family. It does boil down to simple math now, build 500 hawkens or smoothbore or 1,000 lefty rifles now that you have established your presence in the marketplace. Good luck.

 

[Paul Mazan]

Poor business practice? Huh? I'm not exactly sure what you are saying in your response, but let me be clear, I don't owe left-handers anything. I sure hope you aren't suggesting that I do. Without apology, I make decisions based on what benefits the company the most. I have no moral obligation to offer particular products. Get real...

Yes, we have many customers who are left-handed and shoot our right-handed rifles. Yes, we will likely offer a left-handed rifle in maybe 5 years or so. What is wrong with either of these statements other than they don't suit your needs?

Am I reading this correctly? Do you really have this sense of entitlement?

Based on your message, I think you've done me a favor by finding someone else to do business with.

If by entitlement you mean I expect the same level of service for the same price then I guess I am. No, you certainly do not owe lefties or anyone else anything. It seems I have misunderstood the term custom. I was under the impression it ment “to customer specification”. I apologize for being old and grouchy and tired of a life of compromises. I simply am done paying for things that I have to adapt to.

 

[James Kibler]

I disagree with your assumptions. We would sell probably 3-5 times more Hawkens than a left handed rifle. This isn't just based on armchair guesses, but rather what we seen from being in business for 8 years and selling MANY thousands of kits. We have had an absolute outpouring of requests for a Hawken and a close second is the fowler. FAR more than any left-handed requests. To be blunt, we are already dominating the high end kit market. Most of our customers are new. Why would we limit ourselves to 11% of the population with a new product?

In the end, Katherine and I make decisions on what will give us the most return. I feel confident in saying that it's not a leftie version...

 

[James Kibler]

Building a business is a huge challenge of course. You have to factor many things into your model and make survival decisions. That said for firearms the easiest is to build right handed ones because of the potential market. Keep in mind the market is flooded with right handed guns. Jim, you have found a niche and done very well with it so far. Congrats. The lefty world, I r one, is a pent up demand opportunity. We have to settle for right handed everything. Why? Because everyone builds to the market potential. But there is more potential sell through in the lefty world as there is no product for us. You cannot find lefty guns as we do not resell them. I have 5 modern bolts in lefty, I have 8 lefty muzzys. They are off the market as I will not sell them and always looking for more.

Simple math, we make up 11-12% of the population, get 60% sell through to us, have you sold more or less than if you get 2% sell through in righties. Us lefties will survive. They could not convert us after all these centuries to righties or kill us off as an incarnation of the devil by burning us at the stake. You have a great product, a great business model, i have handled 5 or 6 of your rifles and all are great but I will not buy one. Why because I am old and want something for me. Our market is aging quickly and becoming more and more particular. Old folks have the funds and can be an incredible market segment. As to 5 years, many of us may not be here to see your product and that is disappointing. Congrats and continued success to you and your family. It does boil down to simple math now, build 500 hawkens or smoothbore or 1,000 lefty rifles now that you have established your presence in the marketplace. Good luck.

We don't make custom rifles. We make non-customizable kits.

 

[James Kibler]

If by entitlement you mean I expect the same level of service for the same price then I guess I am. No, you certainly do not owe lefties or anyone else anything. It seems I have misunderstood the term custom. I was under the impression it ment “to customer specification”. I apologize for being old and grouchy and tired of a life of compromises. I simply am done paying for things that I have to adapt to.

We do not make custom rifles. We do not advertise to do so. We make kits that are not customizable.

 

[jdw276]

I disagree with your assumptions. We would sell probably 3-5 times more Hawkens than a left handed rifle. This isn't just based on armchair guesses, but rather what we seen from being in business for 8 years and selling MANY thousands of kits. We have had an absolute outpouring of requests for a Hawken and a close second is the fowler. FAR more than any left-handed requests. To be blunt, we are already dominating the high end kit market. Most of our customers are new. Why would we limit ourselves to 11% of the population with a new product?

In the end, Katherine and I make decisions on what will give us the most return. I feel confident in saying that it's not a leftie version...

You know your market, i know my market. I have lived it all my life. It is a right handed world.

Good luck and hope you many many future successes in your business and life.

 

[beagle74]

Please don't ignore me, I'm on your side, and I have $$$$$$$$.


And, I know...... I'm a pest. If you could only hear me whine in person........ I want to be the first to hunt pheasants over a munsterlander with the Kibler Fowler!!!!!!

 

[jdw276]

If by entitlement you mean I expect the same level of service for the same price then I guess I am. No, you certainly do not owe lefties or anyone else anything. It seems I have misunderstood the term custom. I was under the impression it ment “to customer specification”. I apologize for being old and grouchy and tired of a life of compromises. I simply am done paying for things that I have to adapt to.

I agree as a fellow lefty. Very tired of folks telling me I have to adapt. They need to tape their right hand closed and live a day like we have to. Had nuns and basketball coaches do that to me to force me to be right handed. Stubborn, did not take then and will not now.