Kibler SMR lock and flints

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The usual suggestion on mounting flints in the cock is to have them where they contact the frizzen at about 60 degrees and slice down the frizzen face kinda like peeling a potato. When a flint dulls it can be scraped or knapped to a sharper edge. I've used English black, French amber and white chert and they all have been about the same.
 
The usual suggestion on mounting flints in the cock is to have them where they contact the frizzen at about 60 degrees and slice down the frizzen face kinda like peeling a potato. When a flint dulls it can be scraped or knapped to a sharper edge. I've used English black, French amber and white chert and they all have been about the same.
Mine is definitely striking much closer to 80 degrees.

I'll start running them bevel up.
 
So I'm new to flinlocks, and I have about 70 shots through my new SMR. The lock came with a French Amber flint installed bevel up, and it sparked well, but was striking the frizzen about 1/2 way down. I changed the orientation to bevel down and it still sparks well, hits the frizzen closer to the top, and still has a slight downward angle meaning it's not hitting at a 90 degree angle, but it's close to it. I made this change without actually firing the rifle.

It seems like it's being hard on flints. The original broke because I didn't have it installed square to the frizzen. I bought a dozen from Heritage Products so I'd have spares. The next one lasted about 45 shots before it wouldn't spark and couldn't be adjusted. The next one had a fissure near the corner and the corner broke off after about 15 rounds. I installed the one that's in the lock now and have about 10 rounds on it, and it still looks good.

Is this normal, or should I be getting better life from them? Also, for those that have SMR's do you use French Amber, French Black, or English black flints?

Thanks in advance!
I use black flints bevel up. Seems I get the best performance with this combo. Also, you need to keep your flint sharp. I sharpen mine every 3 shots or so. Semper Fi.

IMG_4121.JPG
 
I'm pretty new to flint locks too but am learning. My experience with Fuller "humpback" and ridiculously thick flints turned me to making my own from local chert which work very well. I read a lot on lock tuning, angles, frizzen hardness, spring balance, cock jaw angle, and so on and I think Hanshi summed it up the best.

Regarding Kibler's Ketland style lock, I knap flints from thinner blades and shim them both up and more up in the back with cow hide leathers shaved to a wedge shape so the angle to the frizzen is more oblique yet the flint edge still comes to rest aimed at the center of the pan and as close to the pan as possible. I almost think the frizzen face needs to be tilted back 2-3⁰ more but I'm not going to mess with it. I got 110 shots with no klatches out of the last amber chert flint before I changed it and only think I sharpened it with pressure flaking twice and that was only to get rid of burnished shiny spots on the edge that develop and stall the self-knapping action of a good lock.

I've been at war with an L&R Queen Anne lefty lock that I bought for my trade gun plank build. After detailing, filing, getting the bind out of the tumbler, polishing, reshaping and re-hardening/tempering the frizzen spring so it actually touched the frizzen toe, I got it sparking ok but not great and it would eat a black English flint to the point of not sparking at all in 8-12 strikes. I finally discovered that tue frizzen face was too soft and the flint edge was biting in and ripping off just like going at it at right angles with a file. After bending the cock down slightly so it would throw sparks into the pan instead of under the pan cover and hardening the frizzen twice I got it functional and flints last about 25-30 strikes before needing sharpened. Still, at best the sparks are dull orange and it won't spark with a dull flint at all. The mainspring is too weak to self-sharpen the edge. I think there's an important balance between mainspring strength, length of the hammer arc (impact velocity and inertia) and frizzen temper that determine spark quality and flint life. Still learning what it is and there is probably more than one ideal combination. I ended up having to leave the frizzen face as hard as I could make it with a cool water quench after heating in a rich OA flame until a magnet wouldn't stick. I only annealed the toe and pan cover to the base of the frizzen to cobalt blue to keep it from snapping and heat-sunk the frizzen the second time with a wet rag packing to prevent any anneal whatsoever. I bought a spare frizzen in case I screwed it up beyond repair and I think my next move will be to put a 1095 shoe on it. I was going to make a stronger main spring but I don't think the sear and tumbler notches will withstand the added stress for long. Anyway, it's far better than it was out of the box and I can live with it for now but will never buy another L&R lock.

My Kibler Woodsrunner lock is a beast and likes 7/8 x1" flints bevel up. I ditched the tiny, bevel-down flint it came with because it was hitting at almost 90⁰ and bouncing/skipping on the frizzen and digging a groove at the point of initial contact. I dry fired it about 30 times with one of my chert flints that seemed to do all the right things and it showed no signs of getting dull or losing the white-hot spark shower, but it definitely got shorter. It throws flint chips all over the place and auto-knaps extremely well.

My Willy Cochran lock takes 3/4" square flints, bevel up or down, doesn't matter, and it sparks very hot and well and flints go 50-75 shots with a few maintenance touch-ups along the way. Having less length tolerance than my other locks, it runs out of flint length before the edge is too blunt to resharpen and won't hold the flint well if shimmed forward in the jaws any amount. The frizzen is hard as coffin nails and skates a 60 RC test file. It also, like Kibler's locks, has VERY powerful cock and frizzen springs.

Many people with more experience than I have life left to gain often say that very strong springs aren't needed and that a lock should spark well with the frizzen spring removed. I get that removing the frizzen spring tests that the flint, cock, and frizzen geometry is correct and slicing/riding the frizzen face efficiently, but it's a sure way to bust a flint when the frizzen bounces back and slams closed on it. I'm sure there's a good functional balance to be had with softer springs, good geometry, and a certain temper to the frizzen face, but so far MY experience with only the above mentioned locks is that STRONG and BALANCED springs, a slicing flint angle, and a very hard frizzen with a lot of carbon in it makes reliable, white-hot sparks, doesn't have to have the flint pampered and coddled every few shots (other than wiping everything clean and dry after every shot in humid weather), and provides acceptable (to me, anyway) flint life.

As for the flint only scraping the lower 50% or so of the frizzen face, my newbie attitude is if it sparks well and flints last, run with it. When I manage to wear out the bottom half of the frizzen I will congratulate myself for a life well lived and a gun well enjoyed, dress it back on a belt sander, glue a shoe on it, and try to wear it out again.
 
I'm the kind of shooter who wants my flint as perfect as possible for every shot, even if I'm just practicing. The moment I detect any loss of ignition speed due to the flint, I change it. I mean after knapping a used flint, any delay whatsoever not contributed to another factor prompts me to put in another. My plains rifle thanks me.
 
I am puzzled at reported short flint life. We've done informal surveys in our club and shooters from other clubs. All of us are experienced long term flint shooters. General consensus here is, 120 shots is average from a flint.
I've watched you and others on utoob and enjoyed the excellent productions immensely. Never saw anyone changing flints, only wiping and touching up.

I didn't notice any junk repro locks on any of the guns, either, and the few relatively inexperienced shooters were under expert mentorship. That might explain flint life.

--Ian. You will remember as one of the "Three Amigos" from a long time ago.
 
Normally the first number listed is the width of the flint. Best thing to do is call and confirm how they’re listing their measurements.

Ahhhhh...I have been trying to figure that out for some time. Figured there had to be a standard of listing which dimension is first. Still, calling is in order.
 
I'm pretty new to flint locks too but am learning. My experience with Fuller "humpback" and ridiculously thick flints turned me to making my own from local chert which work very well. I read a lot on lock tuning, angles, frizzen hardness, spring balance, cock jaw angle, and so on and I think Hanshi summed it up the best.

Regarding Kibler's Ketland style lock, I knap flints from thinner blades and shim them both up and more up in the back with cow hide leathers shaved to a wedge shape so the angle to the frizzen is more oblique yet the flint edge still comes to rest aimed at the center of the pan and as close to the pan as possible. I almost think the frizzen face needs to be tilted back 2-3⁰ more but I'm not going to mess with it. I got 110 shots with no klatches out of the last amber chert flint before I changed it and only think I sharpened it with pressure flaking twice and that was only to get rid of burnished shiny spots on the edge that develop and stall the self-knapping action of a good lock.

I've been at war with an L&R Queen Anne lefty lock that I bought for my trade gun plank build. After detailing, filing, getting the bind out of the tumbler, polishing, reshaping and re-hardening/tempering the frizzen spring so it actually touched the frizzen toe, I got it sparking ok but not great and it would eat a black English flint to the point of not sparking at all in 8-12 strikes. I finally discovered that tue frizzen face was too soft and the flint edge was biting in and ripping off just like going at it at right angles with a file. After bending the cock down slightly so it would throw sparks into the pan instead of under the pan cover and hardening the frizzen twice I got it functional and flints last about 25-30 strikes before needing sharpened. Still, at best the sparks are dull orange and it won't spark with a dull flint at all. The mainspring is too weak to self-sharpen the edge. I think there's an important balance between mainspring strength, length of the hammer arc (impact velocity and inertia) and frizzen temper that determine spark quality and flint life. Still learning what it is and there is probably more than one ideal combination. I ended up having to leave the frizzen face as hard as I could make it with a cool water quench after heating in a rich OA flame until a magnet wouldn't stick. I only annealed the toe and pan cover to the base of the frizzen to cobalt blue to keep it from snapping and heat-sunk the frizzen the second time with a wet rag packing to prevent any anneal whatsoever. I bought a spare frizzen in case I screwed it up beyond repair and I think my next move will be to put a 1095 shoe on it. I was going to make a stronger main spring but I don't think the sear and tumbler notches will withstand the added stress for long. Anyway, it's far better than it was out of the box and I can live with it for now but will never buy another L&R lock.

My Kibler Woodsrunner lock is a beast and likes 7/8 x1" flints bevel up. I ditched the tiny, bevel-down flint it came with because it was hitting at almost 90⁰ and bouncing/skipping on the frizzen and digging a groove at the point of initial contact. I dry fired it about 30 times with one of my chert flints that seemed to do all the right things and it showed no signs of getting dull or losing the white-hot spark shower, but it definitely got shorter. It throws flint chips all over the place and auto-knaps extremely well.

My Willy Cochran lock takes 3/4" square flints, bevel up or down, doesn't matter, and it sparks very hot and well and flints go 50-75 shots with a few maintenance touch-ups along the way. Having less length tolerance than my other locks, it runs out of flint length before the edge is too blunt to resharpen and won't hold the flint well if shimmed forward in the jaws any amount. The frizzen is hard as coffin nails and skates a 60 RC test file. It also, like Kibler's locks, has VERY powerful cock and frizzen springs.

Many people with more experience than I have life left to gain often say that very strong springs aren't needed and that a lock should spark well with the frizzen spring removed. I get that removing the frizzen spring tests that the flint, cock, and frizzen geometry is correct and slicing/riding the frizzen face efficiently, but it's a sure way to bust a flint when the frizzen bounces back and slams closed on it. I'm sure there's a good functional balance to be had with softer springs, good geometry, and a certain temper to the frizzen face, but so far MY experience with only the above mentioned locks is that STRONG and BALANCED springs, a slicing flint angle, and a very hard frizzen with a lot of carbon in it makes reliable, white-hot sparks, doesn't have to have the flint pampered and coddled every few shots (other than wiping everything clean and dry after every shot in humid weather), and provides acceptable (to me, anyway) flint life.

As for the flint only scraping the lower 50% or so of the frizzen face, my newbie attitude is if it sparks well and flints last, run with it. When I manage to wear out the bottom half of the frizzen I will congratulate myself for a life well lived and a gun well enjoyed, dress it back on a belt sander, glue a shoe on it, and try to wear it out again.
Ian, I have read a lot of your posts, I think you might be pulling the wool over our eyes so to speak, your knowledge and ways of doing things speaks of someone who has been messing with these types of guns for a while. I do believe you have a knowledge a bit beyond what you say, and there are things to be learned from you. your manner of deliverance on subjects says a lot about you, in another post you were ready to pull the pin that would be a shame as one is never to perfect to learn and the new shooters need a line from shooters and builders, and smiths such as yourself, GOOD JOB
 
Ahhhhh...I have been trying to figure that out for some time. Figured there had to be a standard of listing which dimension is first. Still, calling is in order.
Also, go to the Track of the Wolf site and their English flint section. They give full dimensions and recommendations for various locks.
 
There is a saying "If you can see farther, it is because you have stood on the shoulders of giants". I'm just a poor country boy, educated as a mechanical engineer, raising a family and at 48 still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up.

I just went and checked on the only other board I frequent and by a post I made there I pulled the trigger on a flintlock rifle for the first time on 15 January 2023. I received a Pietta 1860 army revolver as a Christmas gift from my employer 5-6 years ago, took it out one time, had my fun, and bought and fitted a .45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinder to it shortly thereafter and load Aloxed round ball cartridges for it with a very light load of Hodgdon Titegroup. Prior to that I enjoyed a percussion pistol and my Dad's rusted-out Dixie Kentucky rifle in high school but that was over 30 years ago. This year I've assembled and finished a Kibler SMR, built a trade gun from a board, you know about the Ohio debacle, and received a Woodsrunner kit a couple of weeks ago that I haven't started on.

I've done a lot of other things in my life, though, and certain skills, knowledge, and ability to do research translate across a wide variety of disciplines. I have always loved guns, casting bullets, and handloading. Muzzle loaders are just another thing I hadn't really gotten involved with until recently.
 
IanH,
Please, never, never use ANY conventional powder in a gun designed for black powder!
THE BARRELS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR THOSE LEAK PRESSURES.
Its only a matter of time, if you continue, someone will be wearing parts of that barrel.
 
IanH,
Please, never, never use ANY conventional powder in a gun designed for black powder!
THE BARRELS ARE NOT DESIGNED FOR THOSE LEAK PRESSURES.
Its only a matter of time, if you continue, someone will be wearing parts of that barrel.

I appreciate your concern even if you are entirely wrong. The situation is nothing close to putting nitro powder in a muzzleloader. I can explain much further if you wish.
 
The original 45 Colt was a black powder round.
If you want to play with your vision, or the person standing next to you,
Carry On.
The soft steel barrels are not rated for those kinds of pressures. Period.
 
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