Kit Carson Hawkin Kit

[Jack Bickley]

Hi Guys,
I have a Kit Carson Hawkin Kit coming from TOW, and thought I'd ask If you guys thought it would be a good idea to get a CD on rifle building.
I've got the book, Recreating The American Longrifle, which is a great reference.
I've built 3 Lyman Great Plains Rifles, so I have some experience. Of course with Lymans, parts nearly drop right in.
The Kit Carson will be my first requiring quite a bit inletting and drilling of the metal parts, etc.
Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Meplat

 

[MikeChapin]

I think BioProf did one of these a year or so ago. He did an excellent job as I remember. Maybe he will chime in with some good tips.

 

[grey8833]

Meplat:
Finished a Jim Bridger from TOW last year. This build will be a bit different from a kit kit. This is more like a "here is your pile of parts - have fun" kit. By the way - it is a lot more fun, if a lot longer to do. If you didn't get the plans from TOW, get them - big help on stock shape. Research, research, research on the rest. When you get to the trouble spots (forecap / ramrod / entry thimble or inletting the hook breach) just sing out - whole bunch of guys here (with a lot more experence than me) that will be glad to help - all they usually ask is that you ask questions first, do second > the comments that start with "oops" can be avoided (mostly :shocked2: ) by taking your time and asking questions first.

Mike F.

 

[grey8833]

Meplat:
Oh, I forgot, Mike Brooks has put up a very nice tutorial on general rifle building in the Members Resources forum.

Mike F

 

[Swampman]

You might consider

Building a Hawken Rifle
...with Hershel House

"Hershel demonstrates how to build an authentic replica of this famous half-stocked percussion St. Louis rifle. This is not a "kit gun" either, but stocked from a blank with forged iron mounts. Includes close-up details of five original Hawken rifles."

American Pioneer Video

 

[Jack Bickley]

I want to thank everyone for the response.
That tutorial from Brooks answered a few questions already. Thanks.
I've got my metal parts and plans already, but am waiting for the stock. Track sent me a left hand by mistake. Should have the right one by Friday.
Thanks for the offers of assistance. I'm sure I'll be taking you up on it.

Meplat

 

[Herb]

I've built four or five Jim Bridger Hawkens from Track's parts and a couple from the stick. Right now I am inletting the tang into a Kit Carson Hawken "kit" stock from Track. The stock comes cut for the butt plate, so tape the BP on, tape the trigger bar in place and check the length of pull to the front trigger. I believe mine was 14.5 inches, but I'd have to go look at my notes to be sure. It is at least 14 inches. That is just too long for me and most people. I sawed mine (with a hack saw) back to about 13 5/8". It is a lot easier to do that now than put it together and shoot it a while and find you just don't like it. I built a Green River Rifle Works Leman Indian Trade rifle in their shop in 1978, and the stock had about a 14.5" length of pull. I've sawed it off twice over the years and now need to refinish the stock.

 

[Jack Bickley]

Herb,
Thanks for the tip on that. Better now than later for sure.
Did you super glue the tang to your breech plug and barrel? How do I find the correct location of the trigger plate. The inlet isn't the same length as the plate. Which end of the inlet should I lenghten.

Meplat

 

[Herb]

I did not solder or super glue the tang to the breech, though that would make fitting easier. Epoxy also works for this. I smoke up the parts with a kerosene lamp and inlet the hooked together parts this way. Use the (inletted) tail of the trigger plate to locate the bar. The front end needs more inletting. If you cut off the butt to shorten in, just trace a line parallel to the present curve. Extend the top tang shelf forward the amount you need to cut off (1/2" or whatever). The toe plate then needs re-inlet forward. You may have to cut a little off the toe of the butt plate. It is taking a lot of work to get my lock plate inlet deep enough. I had to grind off the little triangular piece behind the curved snail, the lock bolster hit that first. It measured 1.050" across the flat of the tang, and the barrel is only 1.00". Soot or inletting black with show you the high spots.

Did you have them fit the breech plug or are you doing it? The .54 Green Mountain barrel has a hole .625" deep and the plug RL-16-3 was only .50" long, if I remember right, though the catalog says .612 thread engagement. I hacksawed the .120 off the back of the barrel and then filed the barrel end and the side of the nose of the plug to both seat. (the threads don't cut all the way to the shoulder of the barrel, so you need to round off the threads at the nose of the plug, maybe 1 or two threads). The reason I don't remember what I did, is that I first fitted that plug to a .54 Green River Rifle Works barrel by mistake, having to also cut that barrel off. I got two plugs mixed up, having a Plug PH-16-3 that I had for the GRRW barrel. I smoke-fit the breech plug, using a 12" crescent wrench and a heavy vise. I don't use grease until I breech up the plug at the last fit. (It makes it messy).
If you have more questions, sing out, for there are a lot of people here very willing to help you.

 

[Jack Bickley]

Herb,
I let TOW do the breech plug.
It appears as though the octagon part of the tang and the breech plug are 1 1/8" and will have to be filed down to match the barrel, which is 1".
This will be a new experience in rifle building. I can't wait for the stock to arrive.
I won't get to excited though. I'll go slow.

Thanks,
Meplat

 

[Herb]

That plug doesn't sound right. There is a Plug Rl-16-3 (Kit Carson 1" slant Breech & Tang) that measures just a little over an inch. When drawn up tight, you draw file it to match the barrel, and it is pretty close to begin. Then there are 1 1/8" Bridger Hawken tangs. Maybe you'd better call Track on that.

 

This is not to intended to be a flame or an argumentative statement but the "Carson Hawken" and the "Bridger Hawken" kits are not anything like the original Hawken rifles that are attributed to have been owned by these two men. The names given to these kits are a reference name or sales gimmick only. There is no comparison or similarity at all in the kits and the original rifles they are named after. Just a statement meant to educate any who have a false illusion about these kits.

 

[Jack Bickley]

Herb,
Its the right one. At first I thought it was 1 1/8", but it measures 1 1/32". It will just take a bit of filing to fit.
I got my stock today. Curly Maple. Its going to look great.
Do you use a regular bench vise with wood blocks to hold your stock when you work on it or what?
Also, you mentioned you use a kerosene lamp to smoke your stock to inlet it. What exactly is it. Sounds less messy than inlet black.

Thanks,
Meplat

 

[Zonie]

There is no comparison or similarity at all in the kits and the original rifles they are named after.

Oh, I don't know.
They all have this big wooden lump that goes on the shooter end an they have this big steel tube that you cram the powderey stuff and the lump of lead down, an they all have a cramming stick to cram and poke the stuff to the bottom of the tube.
They all have a little pounder thingie on the side to smash fingers and those copper bangey things.
They also have those little peek-um thingies on top of the tube fer peekin at an they all hurt your ears when they make that big cloud of smoke.

That's a lot of things that are exactly the same. :grin:
zonie

 

That's about it. :haha:

 

[Herb]

I built my first 30 or so longrifles and a slew of classic stocked centerfire rifles and a few double shotguns with a Versa Vise. Wood wedges help some times to hold stocks. Then I got a Wheeler from Midway for working blanks, and it works well, but not for removing or fitting breech plugs. Also have a big machinist vise for the plugs.

I used a lot of Jerrow's inletting black, but I like soot better. Tried small kerosene lamps, but have something better now. I use a centerfire brass case, .30-30 works fine, soldered onto a 3/4" flat washer for a base. I take a piece of yarn (synthetic is OK) about three feet long, fold it up until it is about two inches long and stuff it into the case, letting about 1/4" stick out. I make a "snuffing" cap from another case, maybe a .38 or .40 pistol case. Load the kerosene from a squeeze bottle, eye drop bottles work fine. Drip the kerosene onto the end of the wick until it fills. Light it with a cigarette lighter. When done, blow it out and cap it. Have to re-drip the kerosene onto it frequently. The soot helps lubricate the threads of a plug. It wipes off easily and comes off the hands with washing.

 

[bioprof]

Meplat,

If the lock is already inletted, then you don't have any choice where it goes. To get the proper alignment between the hammer and the nipple, you need to move the barrel back quite a ways back further than you'd think and then some more. I'd recommend installing the drum and nipple first before you try to inlet the tang and barrel. You also need to inlet the lock before you inlet the barrel. Putting together one of these from a pre-inletted stock is a lot different than building one from scratch. The order of the process is a lot different. If you inlet the barrel and the tang first, you'll run into big problems later. Mike's tutorial has a lot of good tips, but I wouldn't put your rifle together in the same sequence that he shows.

I used super glue to attach the tang to the barrel for inletting, but had to reglue several times because it didn't hold very well. I think I ended up soldering it to get it to hold while inletting.

I had to get someone else to bend the hammer to get the proper nipple alignment. The hammer on these is pretty thick and there was no way that I could get it hot enough to bend without an acetylene torch. If I had moved the barrel and tang back further to begin with, I might not have had to do this.

I've put together 3 rifles from kits, and the TOW Carson was the most difficult one for me.

Tim

btw, with small modifications, you can eliminate many of the differences between the kit and the originals.

 

[Jack Bickley]

Tim,
Thanks for the info. I wondered if super glue would hold for the whole process. I might just tack weld the tang to the bottom of the breech plug with my mig welder. That way it will stay in place while I file it also.
How did your Kit Carson turn out?

Can anyone give me a couple tips in taking the lock apart?

Thanks,
Meplat

 

You might try epoxy on the breech and tang. That's what I use and it cleans up easy after you get everything inletted. Just heat the parts up and the epoxy will let go.
Get you a mainspring vise if you don't have one already. Take the mainspring out first and then the tumbler screw. Then take the sear spring out before you take out the sear and the the cage (bridle). Be careful not to lose the fly. Sometimes the fly will cling to the gage from oil and grease and you run a chance of losing it if your not real careful. Get a drive punch of brass rod shaped about the same size and shape of the square tumbler shaft. I made a jig out of a piece of one inch thick wood and cut a uU shaped notch in one side of it. Lay the lock plate on the wood with the tumbler setting in the U shaped notch and the hammer side up with all the guts out. Now you can tap the tumbler out with the brass punch without busting the tumbler. The tumbler will fall out onto the table. Never try to pry the hammer off of the tumbler square with a screw driver by levering. Punch it straight through and there is no stress on the tumbler square or the hammer. I hope this helps ya out some.

 

[faw3]

AHHHHH then a T/C Hawken built today is the same as one built by J+S back when, think I'll try 200grs 2f and 2 balls in this T/C 50 cal it should work out just fine.. :rotf: :wink: Fred :hatsoff: