knife handle rivets

[Baxter]

I bought a patch-knife kit from TOW - nice beginner's thing. Made up some crude but workable scales of the maple supplied. Instructions were either not supplied or, more likely, lost. Come the riveting with what I measured to be 11/64" male and female rivets, both 5/8" long and the male rivets have a tiny (1/16") reduced tip with a shoulder, I could not, with gentle-moderate force, get the male rivets to enter the female rivets. I used a file to gently taper the male rivets and then was able to drive them into the female rivets but they drove in at very slightly tipped angles leaving "tipped" flats and won't "go flush" on the male rivet side. I now wonder if I should have shortened the male rivets rather than assuming that their full length was needed? The holes in the knife handle appeared to be able to accommodate the "swelling" of the rivets being driven together. The wood scales are in good order, no splits so I may center-punch the male rivet heads, drill them out and start over with new rivets. Rivets supplied are brass.

 

[M. De Land]

I just make them from brass rod stock of the appropriate diameter, drill the centers for an expansion cone at each end, make the pins just a hair longer than the handle width, cone the handles and flair the pin ends with a set punch into the handle cones. Leaves them flush and expanded into the handle cone seats. MD

 

[BrownBear]

I now wonder if I should have shortened the male rivets rather than assuming that their full length was needed?

I made that mistake the first time I used them. Can't say for sure that's what's going on with yours, but it's a fair bet.

One "trick" that I like for using them is to lay a piece of flat 1/4" steel (2" wide IIRC) on the top side and hammer on that rather than the rivet itself. Might be a sign of my poor hammer skills, but the rivets always seem to sit flat and true with the steel laying on the rivet than if I hit it directly with the hammer. My own workaround for my own problems. :wink:

 

[Rifleman1776]

I use brazing rod or copper wire.
Chicago screws also are fine.
There are many options, some fancy, from Jantz: http://www.knifemaking.com/Default.asp

 

[Baxter]

Thanks to all who replied and especially for the Jantz site reference. I've ordered new rivets along with other small items from TOW and looked at other blades available there - thinking of another simple project but trying the "pins" rather than rivets next time. Again, thank you all. baxter

 

[Mad Professor]

Ran into same problem on my first knives

Shortening the male rivet made all well.

This was green river blanks, and TOTW scales/rivets/drills.

Not a big deal

 

[Baxter]

Yes, same components were used by me. I'll try again, including new scales for a more pleasing shape. Another issue: I roughed the scales down to approximate final size, drilled them, used machine screws to hold all together as I finalized the shape but I see that TOW apparently recommends drilling, riveting and then shaping - believe that I may find TOW's method easier. Oh, I also learned the value of covering the cutting surface of the blade with heavy tape. Ouch! baxter

 

[crockett]

baxter: I think what you are talking about are cutler rivets and they date only to about the 1880's. I think someone (Chuck?) found a source that is 1850's but I'll have to check my notes on that (yeah- I actually data base stuff).
These cutler rivets are normally used with a step drill that makes a perfect depression for the heads of the rivets. On a handle that is 3/4" thick I just use the step drill, pound them together, and so far haven't had a problem but if you have a thinner handle then it would make sense to trim the post and then taper the post about the same as it was originally.
For a pre-1840 the better choice is iron pins. It's hard to find soft iron/steel. Coat hangers are pretty soft and some of the wire used in concrete work is soft. The other pre-1840 option is a combination of nails and a screw. The original on this one was a five pin arrangement in the shape of an H with the four corners being the iron pins (1/8" diameter is about right but 3/32 is sometimes seen) and in the middle a brass screw. This is a very long screw that goes through the handle and then both ends of the screw are cut off and the screw filed down flush with the scales. A plain brass pin looks about the same but the screw was used because the threads held the scales.
And if you just have to be pc....sometimes cutler's rosin (pine resin mixed with charcoal) was used as sort of a filler between the tang and scales. A lot of the orginal knives had half tangs and the compressed fit of the scales wasn't ideal and the gaps were taken up with the stuff. A jet black epoxy putty looks pretty close.
On the handle material, maple is sort of white, boxwood and redwood were original choices, ash might look good. Here's a link you might like
http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/acatalog/1-115.html

 

[LRB]

Don't leave out Euro Beechwood. It was the common standard. 18th c. anyhow.

 

[Baxter]

crockett and Wick. My rifle is an early Lancaster style so, perhaps I have approached the "patch knife" issue from a completely wrong approach. I began my re-entry into BP shooting a few months ago with this rifle, built for me at my request. I also hold a 1979ish CVA plains/Mtn percussion half-stock rifle I built from a kit back then. I bought this Russell knife for its price as a kit and for "something to do". As I go along, collecting "stuff" for both rifles for my daughter and me to use, I find the "purse strings" opening a bit so, though this patch knife will be fun to do, it is unlikely to be the patch knife I will want to use with the Lancaster and probably not even for the CVA - maybe just to peel potatoes at home. I have little, if any real wood/metal working skills but my interest grows. My tools do not include a forge and I am, essentially a right-handed person - lost most of my fine motor skills in my left hand a few years back, can't even pick my nose left-handed anymore. I sincerely appreciate the help that I've received here and am open to suggestions for better work. Thank you. baxter

 

[Baxter]

I found that a 3/8" sharp bit on my Makita portable drill, used in slow reverse "drilled" a nice-looking depression for the rivet heads to fit into in the maple scales without splintering the wood. Sometimes things work ok backwards for me. baxter

 

[Jaeger]

I've started using common, hardware store nails for the pins in a knife handle. I learned that from this forum! The steel (iron?) is soft enough to peen and easy to shape along with the wooden scales. And, from what I understand they are PC/HC back into the 1700's.

 

[LRB]

A good choice for pins. Welding rod is also good, and may be a better fit to match drill sizes. 3/32" to 1/8" is a good range. I use W-1 drill rod quite a bit. All steel seems to peen well if annealed.

 

[crockett]

Wick, I think I'm losing it, forgot to mention the beech,- yeah one of the most common woods. Woodcrafters usually has some.
baxter: Getting back to the cutler rivets, I know you have already spent some dollars but you'll always get around to using stuff. The nails/pins are really a lot easier and if you glue the scales and pins in place I can't see any need to even peen the pin ends. Try to get a good fit. Clear epoxy is a good choice- some of the tan epoxy stuff looks bad if it is visible between the scale and tang.
I mentioned the 5 pin in H pattern but if the tang is already drilled with only 3 holes in a straight line- not to worry, three pins in a straight line is also pc. Just use steel rather than brass pins. Nails are fine, I've used them a lot.
After I get everything about right on the scale to tang fit I'll mark a 1/4" border on the inside of the scale and scrape the inner area just a little so that all you have contacting the scale is the rim of the scale. Then smooth a little sliver of aluminum foil and slide it along between the scale and tang until it sticks- that's a high point to scrape a little. I never really get a perfect fit- let's say about 80% contact and 2 or 3 slivers of foil won't fit- no gaps that big. If you use clear epoxy the fit will look very good.
I'm not pc all the time :grin:

 

[Baxter]

I am interested in that, Wick. I have a mechanic who can probably supply me with some welding rod - I will assume the rod is not the "arc welding" rod of my youth on the farm.. Annealed - please explain, if you will, the basic principles. Perhaps I should buy a book? TIA. baxter

 

[Baxter]

Thanks for that. I really don't want to "glue" the scales onto the knife tang/handle. I really want the scales to show some workmanship, however crude I might make it. I like the idea of nails (annealed?) or, as Wick has proposed, welding rod, annealed. Just strikes me that I've never seen what I thought was a good knife that did not have some pins showing through the scales. May well take me some time to develop some skill but I likely have the time. Thanks for the PC ideas. Now, suggestions for a PC patch-knife or other knife serving that, and other functions as well for an early Lancaster? baxter.

 

[LRB]

I am no expert on welding rods, but the common cheaper variety seem to be quite soft as they are, and I would assume they are low carbon simple steel and need no anneal. You simply hammer the flux coating and it comes off pretty easy. Drill rod comes already annealed. As for glueing the scales, Crocketts suggestion is a good idea in order to seal and keep water out of the joint, as well as add a little more strength to the handle. You could also seal the joint with wax, rezin, even tallow would be better than nothing.
As for a patch knife, in the 18th c., there is little to no evidence in history for a specialized knife for patch cutting. It is assumed that if one needed to cut a patch, he would use his belt knife. Usually a light weight butcher or scalper knife. It seems that most often patches were carried pre-cut, and often stored in the patch box or bag. In the seventies, when I carried and used a patch knife, it was a Russell ripper blade with 1/8" curly maple scales, which also makes a fine skinning knife. If you want a patch knife, there are many choices you can go with.

 

[Mad Professor]

You could go with unfluxed brazing rod (brass), lots softer than steel.

For the cutlers rivets I brought the correct drill size and also the countersink for the heads from TOTW. I did need to trim down the male ends to get them to seat. If they are not perfectly flush seated, they sand down real easy when finishing the handle. It seemed they were softer than the osage wood I was working with

I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow of my first attempts.

 

[LRB]

Yes, you can use brazing rod, or copper rod, but iron is the correct rod. If you want a dirt simple non PC method, You can bore tapered holes, Clamp the grips in place with a steel plate over one side, then pour the holes full of plumbers solder. That's how John Ek made his famous WW-2 combat knives. Works fine, looks good when finished.

 

[Baxter]

I grew up with Osage (Orange) hedges in KS. Hard, very hard wood but beautiful if worked. These trees grow by "sprouting/rooting". Cruel thorns on them made them great stock enclosures if carefully cut back year after year.