Knives of iron?

[Charlie_X]

I don't really know if this is the right place for this thread but I'm not sure any other area would be more appropriate.

A lot of my interest in muzzle loaders and their historical accessories is sometimes focused on more obscure matters. Take knives for example and their use by early settlers and the mountain men, fur traders and anyone else before the civil war. With firearms around this time having barrels made from brass and iron and sometimes steel would it be likely-to-plausible that the people would still be making and using knives of iron rather than steel?

 

[simeon england]

Howdy!

Yes, true. Wrought iron turned to blister steel with the influx of carbon, from charcoal.

Google "blister steel" and you will get a good amount of history.

Hope this helps.

 

[Charlie_X]

Simeon I tried reading about blister steel and its use but that didn't really go into detail about whether the knives and axes and other tools of the early settlers were made of steel or if there were plain iron blades still being used at the time due to higher prices that would be commanded by the superior metal.

 

[necchi]

It really depends on how your looking at "steel" and history.
High carbon steel processing was developed in the 1600's.
So alot of the stuff available already was "steel".

The very earliest trade items where indeed steel knives and hawk/hatchet/ax heads. Again we're talking 1600's

So the sence if "iron" as in the iron age following the bronze age is WAY back in recorded history, Long-long before european white men decided they they had even discovered the Americas.
Steel in America pre-Civil war, Oh Heck Yeah, :wink:

Here's just one story of historical knives and trade of steel knives; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sheffield

 

[LRB]

Blades of wrought iron may have used by those desperate for a blade, but the abundance of imported cheap knives from even before the 17th c. would make wrought iron blades less than abundant, if not relatively rare. As far as high carbon steel processing, it came about much earlier than the 1600's. Wootz, 300 BC, East Africa about 2000 years ago, and welded damascus steel was in use before the crusades. Processed crucible steel, basicly as we know it today, came about in the 1750's and was called cast steel. It started as blister steel melted in a crucible, then poured into ingots. Todays steel came about in 1856 with the Bessemer process.

 

[hogslayer]

One possibility some of the early knives started life as barrel hoops which were made from iron,I have made both knives & saws from hoops, many goods were shipped in barrels there must have been a good supply of materials ,I have no evidence that this took place but from my own experience a knife made this way will make short work when used on green wood,made my first longbow from a fresh cut willow branch using a knife i made from a hoop,(makes a good bow saw as well.)
(Pete)

 

[Jim Blair]

I think you'll find most barrels in the period the OP is talking about were held together with wooden hoops not iron.

 

[simeon england]

Howdy!

All the above mentioned were used. Theres plenty of period axes for example, which show the steel bits forge welded to the iron heads. And it depends on where your talking about as well. A blacksmith further out and away from a large city was possibly less apt to have much steel.

 

[BillinOregon]

Jim: I know many of the first peoples eagerly sought iron barrel hoops for making arrowheads.

 

[crockett]

All of you guys should be listening to Wick. I think there is a misconception happening here. Axes were made it America and IMHO better than English axes BUT...when it comes to knives Sheffield led the world. In the mid 1800's HALF of the production in Sheffield was being shipped to North America. The only knives made here (for the most part) were blacksmith made and fixed bladed types- like what James Bowie used in the Sandbar fight. In any event blister steel was a low quality choice- when blister steel was forge welded into a laminate called shear steel it was better at holding an edge and shear steel was perhaps the most common blade material until the cast steel Wick mentioned was developed. The cast steel process was developed in 1742 but the steel was used mostly for clock springs the first 20 years- so put cast steel in use for cutlery beginning about 1762- which pretty much covers both the long hunter and mountain man eras.
Since anything is POSSIBLE it's possible a few trading posts might have made up a few Indian scalping knives out of iron but that may be a big "Possible" the Indians were actually pretty fussy on quality- they would take traps back to trading posts if the springs didn't work correctly and they generally wouldn't buy cheap Belgium clones of the British made fusils.

 

[VTdeerhunter]

In response to Howards original question, "is it plausible"..then yes. I agree with y'alls comments and they all are sound arguments, but us hunter shooter types were only part of the population at that time...a knife back then was an everyday tool, used by women in the kitchen, on the farm, at work, tending crops and animals, scraping, cutting, hacking, trimming....a family with 10 kids probably had 20 odd knives around or such. Some I'm sure were great quality, but I bet some were hand made as well out of any scrap of iron or steel hanging around...

 

[Black Hand]

I'm sure someone somewhere improvised a knife under emergency conditions out of necessity.

That said, knives were shipped here by the barrel-full, with/without handles and were CHEAP. Why would you expend all that energy and resources to make an obviously inferior knife when they were for sale or trade everywhere?

 

[LRB]

Just as a side note. No one has yet been able to document any shipments of bare blades. Unless there is new info I haven't seen, it would seem all were handled. At least in the 18th c.

 

[Jim Blair]

Bill,have you a date or reference about that?I'm looking for some information on something else but it's to do with containers and methods of construction.

 

[Black Hand]

Just as a side note. No one has yet been able to document any shipments of bare blades. Unless there is new info I haven't seen, it would seem all were handled. At least in the 18th c.

I defer to your extensive experience and will add the information to the knowledge bank.
Thanks,
Albert