Kodiak .72 loads

[Rum River]

First post on the forum, looks like a good place.

I have a new Kodiak .72 double rifle, and I'm curious what loads others may be using. I've only shot to 50 yards so far, but will be trying 100 as soon as I can. Each barrel fired separately for group did 1 1/2" outside measurment. That's with either the Cabelas or Rush Creek (from Track of the Wolf) .715" ball, .010" patch and 90grs. FFg Goex.

When firing the two barrels together for group, the windage isn't bad at all, 1 1/2" - 2". The vertical dispersion though, is 4" - 5". I have some other combinations to try yet, like Fg and 1 1/2 Fg Swiss, but realize I might be loading a different powder charge for each barrel.

Anyone else out there have the .72 double?

 

[windwalker_au]

bill from orogon is the man to talk to he has one and has done a lot of testing with his .72 slugs as well.
bernie :thumbsup:

 

[renovato]

Howdy. Welcome to the group!

I can't help with your question, but I'm envious about your gun. I drool over the Kodiak .72 all the time. I'm eager to watch this conversation on accuracy and loads.

 

[paulvallandigham]

For the vertical dispersion, you will probably have to adjust the amount of powder charge in each barrel to bring them up or down to the same point of aim. 50 yards will be a long shot with that gun, or with any double gun. The original guns were zeroed and regulated to have both barrels shoot to the same POI at 35 yards for Big Game in Africa. Even a 35 yard shot was considered a long shot by those early hunters.

If you are getting those groups at 50 yards, and are hitting that close together, you have a winner. You can get a bit more velocity if you lube the barrel with a greased cleaning patch after seating the PRB in the barrels. More important, you should be using a chronograph to check those velocities, and make sure you are loading the barrels consistently.

Your loading technique, patch thickness, and patch lube will have a great affect on the performance of either barrel, as well as getting both barrels to hit close to the same POI. You are going to have to put in many enjoyable hours changing one variable at a time until you find the combinations that give you the most consistent velocities, and will deliver the dual accuracy you need.

Best wishes. :hatsoff:

 

[pbridges]

I have a Kodiak .72 , as well. It's my 3rd one from Cabela's. The first 2 would not group "as advertised", so I sent them back and finally have one that will shoot both barrels within 3" at 65 yds. Windage deviation is 0-2" and vertical is 2-3" (Depending how I hold it) with 165 grains FFG Swiss or 165 grains H777, PRB .715 and .010 patch. This load is probably good for anything in north america. I changed the front sight to a Hi-Vis type and it seems to work OK. I should probably change the rear as well. PJB

 

[HardBall]

with 165 grains FFG Swiss or 165 grains H777, PRB .715 and .010 patch.

...Talk about recoil

 

[paulvallandigham]

I wonder if the company recommends that he take a good heavy shot of Testosterone before he shoots those loads? They are clearly Way above anything I have seen recommended by Pedersoli, on its website. This is not safe gun handling practice, and I don't want to be standing near this man when he is firing any gun, much less this gun. If he would ever do penetration testing, he would find that all that extra OOMPH he is getting on his shoulder is gone in the first 20 yards, and he is much better off shooting a far saner load behind a RB in either barrel. If he is getting close groups with both barrels at 65 yards,I think he needs to back down his loads to something in the 3-4 dram( 82-110 grains) range, MAX. for that caliber RB. If he actually shoots at a penetration box at 65 yards, he will see very little difference in performance between the 3 dram load and the 4 dram load.

I shoot a 1 1/4 oz. load of shot in front of a 2 3/4 dram load of FFg( 76 grains) and get excellent penetration out to 30 yards with #5 shot. If I ever decide to try RB in my 12 ga., I expect that same powder charge will give me excellent penetration with the RB, too.

 

[cable]

Paul, not to be argumentative [though i guess it is] but those loads are right in line with those recommended by english hunters in africa in the 19th century; they even used heavier loads, and i doubt the steel in those guns was as good as pedersoli. the Sapergia brothers from canada [ over one the american long rifles website http://americanlongrifles.com/american-longrifles-BBS-frame.htm ]have a great deal of experience with the large bores and they frequently use loads this potent. so did Forsyth with his large bore shallow rifled muzzleloaders in the mid 1800's [ he quotes 200 gr charges in a 14 bore rifle for example] i have used 164 gr of ffg in my kodiak lots of times, and neither broke my shoulder nor blew myself up. [ i do use the testosterone gel-packs daily] are those loads needed for anything, even up here in alaska? no i doubt it, but the 80 gr loads pedersoli recommends are just silly for that gun other than plinking. IMHO

 

[paulvallandigham]

Its one thing to shoot those heavy loads out of an full-octagon barrel, but the thin, half round fusil barrels were not intended to take those kind of loads. With modern steels, they don't blow up, at least not when new. But with age, and wear, and neglect, who knows. ore important, these loads are just NOT NECESSARY.

Do your penetration testing. Its the only way most of us have learned that with Black Powder loads, MORE IS NOT always better! A RB has such a poor Ballistic's Coefficient, that you are kidding yourself if you think that getting a few more FPS velocity at the muzzle is going to translate into much more velocity downrange. I don't recall the name, but there is a law of physics that says whatever goes faster into the air, SLOWS FASTER.

It is the weight of the RB that determines it penetrating ability, and velocity is only secondary to the weight in this determination. Soft Lead is unique because of its ability to quickly expand, while not shattering, or separating( like copper does, and like lead with antimony as a hardening agent does) on impact. The lead slugs recovered has expanded to a flattened disc of huge size, but weighs close to the ball that was fired. This produces a desirable PRIMARY WOUND CHANNEL. This is the reason that a PRB is superb for the job of shooting game at these slower velocities.

To achieve the same result, modern guns use a much lighter, smaller in diameter bullet, traveling at twice the speed of sound, to produce a smaller primary wound channel, but also produce a huge SECONDARY WOUND CHANNEL. Its is the secondary wound channel that causes shock to the entire central nervous system and kills quickly because of shock. We use lighter bullets because the recoil forces generated with pushing heavy bullets out at those speeds are beyond Brutal! ( What ever goes forward, and equal and opposite force is generated(( that goes backwards!))).

My friend, George Mitchell made a slug gun in .69 caliber that shot a 1760 grain 2-piece bullet, paper patched, at 1035 Fps. 20 feet in front of the muzzle, in front of 350 grains of FFFg powder. The underhammer action ignited the powder with a modern pistol primer. Recoil of this 100 pound rifle would dislocate your shoulder if you didn't hold the stock tight into your shoulder pocket. The barrel was 8 inches across the flats, and about 4 feet long. Now, his rifle was BUILT to take those heavy charges. A fusil de Chasse IS NOT!

There is really nothing to argue about, but I appreciate your observations.

 

[Darkgael]

I wonder how fast a 90gr. (3.25drams approx.) charge of FFg will move a .715RB (550grs). It only has to have 950fps MV to outperform a .50 RB at 1700fps MV at 50 yds. energywise (though it drops twice as much).

Paul: how big across that flats was that .69?

 

[Cosmoline]

This is not safe gun handling practice

It's hot but doesn't seem dangerously excessive. My own Kodiak barrel assembly is an enormous mass of high grade, modern steel. I've never seen smokeless barrels as massive as these, let alone BP. That said, I'm sure you're correct about diminishing returns with the PRB.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Paul, that works out to a fairly standard 4 bore big game rifle load. These guns weighed as little as 18 pounds in a single shot and maybe 22 to 24 pounds in a double rifle. They were used in the field by early hunters and they weren't injured by their guns. And some of them fired slugs weighing more than a quarter pound. It would seem that a 100 pound rifle would soak up recoil a lot better than the much lighter offhand rifles would.
What sort of stock configuration did this rifle have? Maybe it was transferring recoil rather than helping to control it.

 

[Darkgael]

I was just reading through a chapter about the history of DRs that is part of Craig Boddington's book, Safari Rifles. Unfortunately, he does not mention any charge weights for the larger bores. He does, however, mention rifle weight: "Sir Samuel Baker's 'Baby' was a gargantuan single shot 2-bore. Weighing 20lbs. and firing a half pound explosive shell...". Boddington also mentions that Baker "confessed to being afraid of it". Mentioned, in addition, is a 12 bore load that is a 750gr. bullet at 1500fps. for about 4000 ft.lbs. I wonder how much powder THAT took.
Relevant to one of Paul's points is the note that although these guns (10 and 12 bore) were used on dangerous game and that, though they had the power, they lacked the penetration.
Another point that Boddington makes about ML DRs is that "For a double rifle's barrels to shoot together, the first essential criterion is consistent ammunition - and this would not be possible until the invention of the metallic self contained cartridge."
So...I wonder about that last since some fellows on this forum seem to have their barrels shooting pretty close, although a properly regulated DR cartridge gun will put all shots from both barrels together into a three inch group at 100yds. BP guns would do about six inches at that distance. (See Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle", p.108-109)
Pete

 

[oletymepreacher]

My Kodiak 72 is a shooter, 80 grs GOEX and PRB prints 1.5" horizontal at 75 yards. I have killed buffalo at 100 yards, both balls passed completely through, both hit ribs, with 90 grs GOEX 2f. That's enough penetration. A friend who likes to see how much powder he can burn, has settled on 110 grs as a practical limit-nothing to be gained in his opinion in burning more powder.

 

[Darkgael]

Yeah. When I talked to Pedersoli about the gun and regulation, they told me that it was supposed to group at 75yds with the proper load. Sounds like you've found it.
"Semi-regulated" they called it.
I'll probably end up with one.
Pete

 

[Rum River]

My plan for the weekend is to get out to the backyard for more testing. Hopefully I'll have some good news to report.

 

[Rum River]

Been too busy to post before now. The next test at the backyard range didn't last long, never even fired a shot. I was snapping caps to get ready for the first charges when the left lock stripped the sear. It's currently in pieces on my bench, partway through the repair process. I took out the right lock and am using that as a guide. I have carefully filed the new notch, and am going to buy a decent set of small stones to smooth it out. I debated about sending it back, but I've worked on actions before, just not one of these. Question: How hard should these parts be tempered? The metal seems softer than I thought it would.

 

[Cosmoline]

Wow. Mine seem quite tough. Do you have pics of the break? Was it the safety notch that cracked off?

 

[Christiaan]

That must have been very frustrating. :cursing:
Send a mail to [email protected]
They are aware of the hardening and breakage problems on a batch of tumblers. They will replace it for you. Even if you are able to fix it, get a replacement.

 

[Christiaan]

I have shot the .72 Kodiak with the .715 PRB and at 120gr to 130gr it is OK.

I've done more tests with the 770gr conical. 130 to 145gr seems to be a fine load. I have shot it at 180gr just for the Kick of it, but find no reason to take the recoil and waste the powder.

140gr gives full penetration in an elephant to lodge against the opposite ribs.

Pedersoli suggests 90gr of FFg but I find it a bit light.

Adriaan Roets has shot quite a few animals with the 72 Kodiak here in Africa. He uses an 880gr conical.
Including Cape Buffalo

And Lion

Hope this helps a bit.