Lancaster, Lehigh, "Ludowici?"

[Cattywompuss]

Evening all,

Decided to post some pics of a couple of my rifles and reap some opinions. Now, I'm Bulldog born, and Bulldog bred, and when I die I'll be? Bulldog dead, that's right. Son of His Majesty's former 13th Colony in America, Georgia.

Born in Savannah, I followed my grandaddy's example, and, unlike any of his brothers and sisters, or his kids and other grandkids, moved about some. Did a few years in the former Creek/Cherokee border country of Coweta, and now live a few miles from the meandering Tallapoosa River in Alabama.

Anyway, enough pontification from me, behold these guns. The first I am wondering if the rest would agree is a Lehigh valley style, Golden-ageish gun. .50 cal, shallow round grooves, minor adornment. Sheet brass box, vent pick holder, L&R lock, swamped barrel that balances like nobody's business, gorgeously inflamed stock. Belonged to a fella from Ohio whose son brought it to the Georgia mountains with the other 40ish muzzleloaders his dad left when he passed.

Second, what I decided about a year ago was a generally Dickert/Lancaster Golden Age gun, found in a Newnan, GA pawnshop along with my early Leman flint .54. It's a .45 straight barrel browned from here to Sunday, with L&R lock, hobbyist engraving and carving, but that nevertheless shoots a 1 inch group at 50 yards.

Love to have anyone's thoughts, opinions, or alibis. Cheers gents, from a Savannah boy lost in the wilds of Alabama! (Yes, quality bourbon is to blame.for my cheerfulness tonigh!)

 

[Cattywompuss]

A few more of the .45 "Dickert" with weird concave comb

 

[Cattywompuss]

Just for grins here's a decent pic of the slope of that first rifle. It's the main reason I give it a Lehigh "style" assertion. Quite a dainty little stock compared to the beefy thick club-like Dickert Lancaster style stock.

 

[Bnewberry]

I am not an expert so I look forward to reading the opinions! I would guess the first gun to be more of an early Virginia save for the lock, or maybe Lancaster. But remember, I am not at all knowledgeable. I have no clue on the second gun.

 

[Cattywompuss]

I am not an expert so I look forward to reading the opinions! I would guess the first gun to be more of an early Virginia save for the lock, or maybe Lancaster. But remember, I am not at all knowledgeable. I have no clue on the second gun.

Thanks for the post Bnewberry! I have a tentative passing knowledge of the various schools, but I am by no means a scholar. The first rifle doesn't tick all the marks for Lehigh, but there are a few guns I've seen from there that lack the Roman Nose en extremus like this one.

Early Virginia tends to have a much broader backside like the second rifle from what I've seen. But I admit I haven't seen nearly enough to claim authority on anything.

BTW, if anyone is wondering where Ludowici is, I'm not joking in the least, Google "speed trap". It's in the Wikipedia page for that phrase. Meant merely as a joke by me.

 

[Flintandsteel]

B,
No Lehigh’s here. To be fair, it does look like someone’s interpretation of a Bucks county gun. Bucks Co. borders Lehigh, so there are some similarities.
if I were to guess, these are all guns put together from kits, by an amateur builder.
That doesn’t mean they won’t shoot great! Just means that not everything is proper for that style, and some warts are still visible. ( weird buttstock on the Lancaster)
My first builds had similar issues.....you learn as you go.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Yeah, from what I see they were definitely put together from parts kits, but given the prices I paid, I can live with warts as long as they shoot.

 

[Pete G]

They'll have to shoot well because the warts are large

 

[Cattywompuss]

They'll have to shoot well because the warts are large

Which is fine considering they cost about as much or less than a new Green Mountain barrel.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Good examples of how a $1000 parts set can turn in to a $300 gun.
Or,
"Yeah, but she's got a great personality."

 

[Cattywompuss]

Try $200 or less in a pawnshop. Outside of muzzleloading circles anything blackpowder is valueless. For instance, I gave a customer $100 for a clean .54 GPR. Because, at least in the south, average Joe ain't spending a dime on a muzzleloader.

An example more to the point is the black gun world. You could build a gun out of the finest parts on earth but on a secondary market, at least from the point of view of me selling guns every day, you will get half of what you paid.

Heck slap a Kibler on the wall in a non-specialty store, and someone will offer you $200 bucks so they can slap it on the wall at the lake house. But then, lake folk are a strange lot.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Good examples of how a $1000 parts set can turn in to a $300 gun.
Or,
"Yeah, but she's got a great personality."

In the real world, with muzzleloaders being quite the small niche, unless you have an established name the reality is that every TOW, Pecatonica kit put together by anyone is actually a $300 gun to normies. Sad, but true.

You could be a skilled artisan, but if your name doesn't have any results for a quality website when Googled, you just ain't adding value to that $1000 worth of parts. Except value in meat. But given the price of powder these days even the deer is gonna cost yoy

 

[hanshi]

Well, here's another born & bred Georgia Cracker at your service. And all one has to do is be born in Georgia to know what "Ludowici" is. Not being much schooled on the various characteristics that pin-point provenance all I can say is a critique of what I see.

True, both rifles definitely didn't come from a master builder nor do they copy a particular rifle/location/builder. However, neither one is as bad as the drift of the posts might imply. If they fit you and feel okay at the shoulder that's 1/3 of their value. If they function about perfectly (lock, trigger, etc) then that's another 1/3. Now comes accuracy. If they are indeed very accurate, or out shoot you, that's another 1/3. So let's add all this up and see what we've got. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 100%! Actually they both look "pretty" good, definitely a step up from the typical factory gun. Another way to look at it is to say they are perfect: i.e. if they were any nicer you wouldn't have been able to afford them and if they were any rougher you wouldn't want either one.

If you like them enjoy them. I wouldn't kick either one out my front door.

 

[Cattywompuss]

That's a pretty darn fair equation. I certainly can't complain about them. If I had the wood to do over I probably would look for someone better with a pocket knife to widdle them down, but I reckon they are about as decent as the average guy buying a kit can do.

All five of my flinters came from two people, neither of whom I ever met. 2 came from someone whose estate ended up in a pawnshop, and three came from an estate of someone who may have been a member of this forum considering the 50 odd BP rifles I saw. The three I bought from the estate were the last of the flinters in the pile that the son of the former owner wasn't keeping. He kept what could probably be called the top of the heap two Pennsylvanias for his two sons, which is of course totally fair.

Most of the collection were caplocks including several fantastic Hawken repros. There was a swivel double rifle, two underhammers, a possibly original trade gun, and a heap of TC, CVA, and such. There was also an American made CVA.

Anyway, the three I got are all built by the fella who passed, and for a non-gunmaker they are great.

Will they win awards or pass muster with collectors? Maybe not, but by hokey, they shoot. First sign the ol fella was a shooter: almost every ramrod had an extra three inches.

 

[Celticstoneman]

Cattywompuss, myself being rather dense and probably over sensitive, I sit here at a loss as to the tone of several notes here. I can do lots of things and appreciate those skills when I see them in others work. Having tried a lot more things I stand in respect of the work of others. Unless they are a total butcher's job! Those weapons are beautiful to my eye, I like the 1\3 1\3 1\3 analogy it works for me.I'm glad you acquired those "Warts" Good on you mate.

 

[Cattywompuss]

Cattywompuss, myself being rather dense and probably over sensitive, I sit here at a loss as to the tone of several notes here. I can do lots of things and appreciate those skills when I see them in others work. Having tried a lot more things I stand in respect of the work of others. Unless they are a total butcher's job! Those weapons are beautiful to my eye, I like the 1\3 1\3 1\3 analogy it works for me.I'm glad you acquired those "Warts" Good on you mate.

Cheers Celticstoneman! Yeah, I'm not really sure why the tone became less than salutary, but each to their own. For me, guns like this are a tale of someone doing what many on this forum aim to do right now today. They aren't masterpieces when stacked up against Mike Miller or Hershel House, but they were the best someone without a mint could do, and better than I can do. They aren't perfect. But the guys who built them were shooters, and lay-artisans.
I'm a youngish fella. About half the age of the average traditional muzzleloader. Yet I have 30 years of BP shooting. With that in mind I can only presume that criticisms come from master craftsmen and the purest scholars/gatekeepers of all that is considered holy in the longrifle craft.

Either way, my guns are as good as pappy's old Long Tom in my book, though they obviously came from the benches of amateurs.

"Here's to the boys who are happy and gay! Laughing and dancing and tearing away! Rollicksom, frollicksom, frisky and free! We're the rollicking boys around Tonduragee!"

 

[martin9]

'They're not near as bad as some seem to think. Besides the patchbox style not quite fitting the gun that first gun looks well made. Slim lines and pretty clean work. I bet he made the darker gun first. The scoop on the comb is because that buttplate is junk...not bad work just a bad casting. I saw a buttplate like that not long ago and the concensus was to throw it in the trash. an amateur wouldn't know that though and just uses the parts they get. If the lock panels were slimmed down and it had a better fitting buttplate it'd be a lot better. Both things could be remedied

 

[Okie Hog]

Cattywampuss i think both those rifles are perfectly gorgeous. IMO: The fact that they were built by regular folks adds something to their value. Way back when i owned a few original rifles including one made by Hacker Martin. Not one would shoot as well as the cheap guns factory guns made today.

Yep, i have lot's of faults, luckily snobbery is not one of those.

 

[Cattywompuss]

'They're not near as bad as some seem to think. Besides the patchbox style not quite fitting the gun that first gun looks well made. Slim lines and pretty clean work. I bet he made the darker gun first. The scoop on the comb is because that buttplate is junk...not bad work just a bad casting. I saw a buttplate like that not long ago and the concensus was to throw it in the trash. an amateur wouldn't know that though and just uses the parts they get. If the lock panels were slimmed down and it had a better fitting buttplate it'd be a lot better. Both things could be remedied

Howdy Martin,

These two guns are from two different folk. The dark Lancasterish Dickertish gun is from a pawnshop lot, and the second is from an Ohians estate. Oddly, the scooped comb gun is the most comfortable longrifle I've ever held. The superwide buttplate and the scoop do not hinder the handling in the least. I would re-Christen her Old Swayback if she wasn't already Murder Hornet(in honor of the year I got her).

The second gun(lighter stocked with stronger drop in the stock) was from a huge collection where the guy started building guns later in life. His home-built guns could almost be graded from obvious early attempts at half-stock plains type rifles to finer and finer Pennsylvania style guns. I suspect he just built parts sets for the last 30 years of his life. Mine was not the finest in the collection, but it was not withheld by the son for sentimental reasons so...

If I had more than the cash I had alloted myself I woulda gone buckwild on what he was willing to sell, but I was strict in not spending more than a certain amount, and I gotta say I got a lot for what I spent. A Narragansett Arms(according to many here) PA Rifle and Fowler, a .40 poor boy schimmel/squirrel rifle, and the light flamey. 50 pictured here.

Sad part, the son said he needed to go back to Ohio for all the pouches and horns left at his dad's. Even when he gets them, it's a three hour drive up to the mountains if I want to see any of the accoutrements. But he did invite me deer hunting so...

 

[Cattywompuss]

Cattywampuss i think both those rifles are perfectly gorgeous. IMO: The fact that they were built by regular folks adds something to their value. Way back when i owned a few original rifles including one made by Hacker Martin. Not one would shoot as well as the cheap guns factory guns made today.

Yep, i have lot's of faults, luckily snobbery is not one of those.

Thankee Okie Hog!