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Lead Contamination of Gun-Shot Deer

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I'd been living in Germany the past few years where they are very quick with severe regulations: Some states there had disallowed the use of lead-containing projectiles for their forresters/professional hunters (and I think anyone who hunted state lands) and mandated the use of solid copper. The reasons given were two-fold: 1. possible lead contamination of the venison (harvested game is marketed to the public there), and 2. negative environmental impact. (--keep in mind that there are ONLY about 300,000 hunters in Germany with a population of about 90 million people...how much negative impact is that?!) :youcrazy:

Now, I thought I'd left this extremist thinking behind when I returned to the United States, but... reading the December issue of Fur-Fish-Game (p.4) I came across the article "Is Lead Contamination a Problem with Gun-Shot Deer?"... I certainly hope this is NOT an indication that we are starting to go down that same over-the-top road that Germany already has gone down.

What's your take on the article?... As I've been out of the country and thus diconnected from the US hunting scene, has the venison-lead contamination issue been given a lot of press/discussion here?

Regards,
Hubertus

(P.S. As I was leaving Germany, at least one state there reversed their copper-only policy and mandated lead as there had been several fatal hunting accidents during large social hunts (driven hunts) resulting from odd-angle riccochets. Thus, the government safety commission was tasked to test how riccochet-prone solid-copper was compared to lead. :surrender: )
 
Some states have already implemented bans on the use of lead...it started in California because of a (IMO ridiculous) claim that 'condors' were dying off due to ingesting shot game leftovers that were tainted with lead;

A neighboring state immediately implemented the same ban because they too have a condor or two in the area;

Other states are looking at possible lead bans right now;

The military has banned the use of lead ammo;

NY State has banned the use of lead for all it's law enforcement training use year round;

IMO, its not a question of if, only when and how fast they will all start sliding down the slippery slope banning lead use for hunting...the precedent was already set with the lead ban for use with waterfowl 15-ish years ago.
 
It's just a "back door" for the "anti's" to limit or prohibit legal ownership of all firearms. If they can't ban guns, then they will ban ammunition or make it difficult or impossible to obtain. We need to strongly oppose ANY attempt to limit our 2nd. Ammendment RIGHTS as laid down by the constitution. :cursing:
Idaho PRB
 
And if you think it's just going to be lead bullets, think again. Discussions about fishing gear (sinkers) will be discussed too.
 
All this is based on flawed research data, that Glen Sanderson produced when he was working on his PhD at the Univ. of Illinois. Someone got ahold of his preliminary data, and went to Congress, who immediatesly banned the use of lead shot for Migratory Waterfowl.

Lead appears in many areas of the country naturally. Its in the soil and water. Because its a heavy metal, it usually passes through your stomach and out the kidneys at your large intestine, with other metals, and poses no harm to adults. There are huge lead deposits along the Mississippi river, at Galena, in NW Illinois, and at St. Louis, and below St.Louis, Mo. If lead in the water was a real problem, everyone living downstream of these two sites would be suffering from lead based illnesses. It precipitates out quickly, and combines with the abundant calcium and iron also found in the water.

However, in new born infants, who are just forming their brains and growing everything else, Lead has been found in their brains, in the fatty tissues, and is believed to be the source of some retardation. That is why Lead based paint was outlawed in the early 1960s.

Instead of imposing sanctions on errant parents, or providing poor families with training to be parents, and how to supervise their new-borns, and how to get rid of loose paint as a house hold cleaning chore, we had to ban lead based paints.

Nannygate was born!

There is some suggestion, dubious because of the sources, that lead also affect women more than men. Again, that fatty tissue difference. What actual harm, if any is done to women who ingest lead, and how much lead, must they ingest, and its source, before they suffer any ill effects is what is in dispute.

As to the birds, and game, lead oxidizes quickly, and combines with calcium, and with iron, easily in soils, and in the water. The oxides cover the lead inside and prevent the lead from being transferred to the blood stream when actually ingested by birds, while the pellet passes through the alimentary canal.

Glen said the problem they had was that they took blood tests from dead birds without plucking the feathers( can you imagine how hard it would be to find college students to pluck feathers from decaying corpses, much less look for old wounds in such bodies??) to look for old wounds.

When that was pointed out to them, they changed the test procedures to make sure they were not blaming INGESTED shot pellets for lead poisoning found in the blood streams and organs that actually came from wounds. There is a long established percentage of mortality ascribed to all hunting activity included wounded birds that die later.

With that new testing procedure, Ingested lead became a non-factor.

Glen's adjusted data found NO extra mortality ascribed to lead ingestion, from eating lead pellets by waterfowl, over the normal mortality figures from all other causes. This, after he compared mortality figures for birds found in areas where no hunting was allowed( game preserves) compared to those found in areas where hunting is allowed.

I heard this from Glen himself, and how he tried to get the Federal Government to listen to his final results, but it was too late. He spoke about his frustration, at a service club meeting, his shame and embarrassment that his data was used to restrict water fowl hunting, and the fact he could not get anyone in Congress to listen and repeal the law. The forces behind the law didn't give a damn about the ducks: they were after our guns.

The bit of lead that may be found in the meat of deer and other game shot with lead bullets or balls is easily cut away along with the blood shot meat around the primary wound channel, during butchering. Only those operations that throw the entire deer into a grinder to make " burgers" risk putting lead particles into meat that the public will eat. The idiots they hire to bone out the meat are not trained to cut away the bloodshot meet, as it " takes too much time".

Again, for adults, even this lead poses no health risk. I have bitten down on many bird pellets( shot) in birds I have killed over the years, when eating pheasants, or other game birds. As much as I try to find all the shot, sometimes a piece gets in there, and is not found until we are eating the cooked meat. So what! The pellet is put on the side of the plate, with the bones, if any, and thrown out with the garbage.

The politics of this is a clever use of the " Bambi" syndrome fostered by Disney, and used by PITA to try to ban hunting, mixed with the anti-gunners( same folks for the most part) who want to ban all guns. If they can ban hunting, or make it so inconvenient or expensive to hunt and to practice marksmanship skills, no one will be buying guns, the gun companies will go out of business, and they will win the gun debate by default.

The Brady Group has been caught publishing its long term goals, and short term plans to distort, lie, confuse, and wear down the Pro-Second Amendment "enemy" and mostly the non-shooting public, so that interest in shooting and hunting slowly drops down to the point where Pro-gun advocates can no longer persuade a majority of voters to protect the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

The battle against Lead bullets, is just one more part of the fight. They have taken the fight to Europe, because there are so few hunters, and shooters there, much less democracy, NO BILL of RIGHTS in their constitution recognizing or protecting any right to self defense, or to possess firearms, so there are much stricter regulations of guns and the public expects and accepts them. Then, when they win In Europe, they will try to force the USA to comply through UN resolutions.

The Clintons had this plan all greased up and ready to go in 2000, when Al Gore did not win the Presidency, and UN Ambassador Burton went to the UN and delivered a clear speech saying that the US would never support any UN resolution that would interfere with rights protected by our Constitution. The Brady group, and the Clintonistas- Ms. Bloodworth from Arkansas-- who ran the Million Moms crusade out of the West Wing of the White house, at our expense-- was furious, but decided to bide their time.

That time begins on Jan. 20, 2009.
 
I my self, am trying to get the world to ban water. This idea will help stop floodings and drownings. :rotf:
 
:stir: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Darn ---- I wonder if all my ancestors back to the 1600s died of lead poisoning----Might be able to put together a good case and see if there was some government conspiracy or cover up. :hmm: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :surrender:
 
Hi Hubertus,

being from Germany I know these stupid attempts to forbid lead bullets. But only a few states like Brandenburg have the use forbidden for their foresters or profi hunters. A prohibition for the use when hunting on public land is not been seen. Meanwhile they mentioned that there happened serious accidents with non lead bullets.
In some hunting magazines there were tests published how many lead is in a deer taken with lead consisting bullets like jacketed or hp. But I have to say that these deers shown there were very bad hit and that it is a kind of politicum.
I think using a PRB which stays nearly complete during the hit is the best thing. :grin:

The persons who are against lead bullets are not so much for humans health, but more for the health of eagles. They say that many of the eagles would have died because they ate lead poisend meat and the meat was from bullets :confused:


Regards

Kirrmeister :hatsoff:
 
gmww said:
And if you think it's just going to be lead bullets, think again. Discussions about fishing gear (sinkers) will be discussed too.


Its ALREADY there: Looking at the 2009 Fishing Regs for Ore-Gone; There is a big old dribbleing piece (POS!) about the negative effects of lead on the environment and biting splitshot, etc... :barf: :barf: :barf:
 
I saw an article on that a few months ago...

I guess its high time that all outdoor thermometers are banned because they have mercury in them !!
 
" "Is Lead Contamination a Problem with Gun-Shot Deer"

I suspect the only problem in that case would be for the particular deer that may have died a possibly slower more painfull than normal death and that is a stretch considering the typical final days of most of Gods creatures, starvation. disease, predation, are the natural ones, and Buicks and bullets are a couple man has aded to the list.
 
With an increasing population of anti's and the recent death of common sense, I weep for our future. :shake:

I am on board with 10gauge's proposal to ban water - the logic is sound and so we should act quickly before the opposition can gain in strength.
 
Thats the spirit Baron, with this great idea we will make this world a safer place. :grin:
With all kidding aside I think we all know that this is manure and its just about people control, control the people.
Theres an old saying in government, if the government does not have control of it, then its out of control and then must be controled. :shake:
 
It seems odd to be paranoid about lead in children's toys and then inject it into their food. I'm not concerned about bullets in deer as I don't use bullets that over fragment, but I'll stick with non-toxic shot.

Birds pick up lead and it stays in their gizzards for a time and that's why they have more problems.

I'm sure plenty of ancestors died or went nuts from lead poisning especially miners.
 
YOu arre entitled to your opinions, even when they are wrong. However, you should know that there is NO empirical evidence supporting any of your suppositions.

We only know that when lead was used to seal canned goods, in the late 19th and early 20th century, The lead could be leeched into the vegetables or meat in the cans because of the presense of acids like vinegar used in the canning process. This lead was ingested, and when people were restricted to a steady diet of this contaminated food, YES, they could suffer the effects of lead poisoning.

There was a ship that was trapped in ice in the Arctic Ocean, that lost many of its members, who tried to survive 2 years on the canned goods stored aboard. The ship's logs told of their failing health, the symptoms, and their deaths. They were buried in permafrost, where their bodies were recovered intact, a few years ago. Biologists were able to determine the cause of death, and pin point the source of lead as being the cans used for storing their food.


As to the pellets picked up by birds, bird cycle new pellets through their gizzards daily, so any lead shot that gets into the gizzard first has to have the other stones scrape and break off the calcium or iron oxide coatings around the pellets, and then they might be exposed to lead. Since the coatings are tough, and get thicker with age, the older the pellets, the less likely a bird will receive any lead "poisoning". That is what Glen Sanderson's final data showed, and why the entire argument about lead poisoning in wild birds is a " Red Herring ".

Only in laboratory conditions, where lead pellets, without oxides, were fed to birds daily did the birds come down with symtoms of lead poisoning. Those laboratory birds merely proved that a bird can be killed by lead poisoning, not that it is occurring in the wild as the result of lead shot being used by hunters, and ingested by birds.

The other part of the research found that most of the lead shot is TOO BIG in diameter for the tastes of birds-- that is, they choose smaller grit to put in their craws, than the size shot used by Duck and Goose hunters.

No one wants to talk about that among the " greenies".

There is absolutely NO data to show that upland game birds ingest lead pellets in hunting fields at all. The pellets fall rather randomly , and usually over vegetated areas. Oxides begin to form with the next rain, and the pellets, being heavy, drop down through the vegetation to the ground, are quickly covered by plant refuse, where the birds don't look for grit, or find it. Birds go to bare ground areas, and to streams and banks of rivers and islands to find the grit for their craws(gizzards).

The only way upland areas become bare is by turning the soil, and this tends to make the lead pellets fall down into the deeper areas in the tilled soil, where, again, the birds can't find it. Conversely, any disturbance of the soil does raise up the lighter stones, such as calciums, and even silicas, which the birds do pick up for their gizzards, after rains wash away the heavier sands, and loam( plant matter) deposits that form the soils.

Be very cautious whenever some one begins to cry" The sky is falling!"

The Greenies are famous for doing this, based solely on lab experiments, usually injecting many times the amount of a substance that we, or animals are every likely to ingest in nature. But, their liberal friends in the Press love BAD NEWS, and way too may people take this stuff as true, and therefore dangerous.

These "scientists" have even gone so far as to prove that drinking too much water can be fatal( as If we never heard of drowning before!)Actually, they were causing interruptions of the central nervous system by flooding the body tissues with so much water that the electrolytes needed to transmit signals were reduced to fatal levels. But, again, you would have to drink gallons of water each day- far more than is humanely possible-- for several days before this kind of medical condition would arise.

All Laboratory studies should be treated with a great deal of skepticism, until others can look at the test procedures, and protocols, to see what the first group of scientists "fudged", or simply left out! Good science is replicable. Most of what we have seen from the Greenies and their Government buddies at EPA has been junk science.

I give this cautionary advice as an experienced scientist. :hmm: :hatsoff:
 
Paul,

In some ways we balance eachother out. I'm more inclined to err on the side of human and wildlife health and your more inclinded to protect gun and hunting rights. Things I think we both value. :)
 
I have always been one for eveything in moderation is ok. But this lead ban manure has crossed the line of my "Liberty". Non toxic shot should be only for personal choice, not law.
I hunt waterfowl on the Gila River in AZ which is one of the most polluted waters in this country done from approved Govt chemicals that were used on the farms all along the rivers banks. Now the Govt is going to tell me that a little lead in the water is hurting the wildlife.
More damage has been done by our Govt and corporations to our enviroment then sportsman lead shot will ever do. If you have ever done any panning for gold you will find small peices of natural lead in your pan, thats right lead comes from the earth and is a natural deposit in our ground.
Tree huggers paving the road to Hell with good intentions, I guess my uncle was right when he said the masses are asses.
 
Idaho PRB said:
It's just a "back door" for the "anti's" to limit or prohibit legal ownership of all firearms. If they can't ban guns, then they will ban ammunition or make it difficult or impossible to obtain. We need to strongly oppose ANY attempt to limit our 2nd. Ammendment RIGHTS as laid down by the constitution. :cursing:
Idaho PRB

As long as we take that opinion on this issue, traditional muzzleloading will lose. I've brought up this issue before and posted some citations for peer reviewed publications on it. A lot of people have responded in this sort of way and I can tell you:
1) The Second Amendment says absolutely nothing about a citizens right to use lead.
2) Firearms manufacturers will be perfectly happy to see lead go away because it is toxic and difficult for them to deal with for a regulatory perspective and, most importantly, any replacement for lead will make them millions. Think I'm wrong? Go take a look at the cost of a box of controlled expansion, non-lead cartridges and compare them to traditional lead core bullets.

So far there is no information out there at all examining lead contamination from traditional slow moving, pure lead, PRBs. I'll be willing to bet you that the cohesiveness of the PRB, the lower velocity, and the reduced probability to fragment will show that lead contamination is not a significant problem with this type of projectile. However, the problem is that we are few and we are, financially speaking, a tiny drop in the bucket of the firearms market. Probably no one will bother to ask these questions in researching this issue and because of that and we will be lumped in with what ever legislation comes out on the issue. We'll be forced to buy bismuth or synthetic balls, or will not be allowed to hunt with them at all. That saddens me because I dearly love to hunt with these guns. It is part of our history that I do not want to lose.

Sean
 
"With all due respect, Paul, you're a lawyer not an experienced scientist"

Lord but it's hard to be humble(and remember all your titles)when you'r perfect in every way.
 
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