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Sean? Is that the advise our founding Fathers would have told the people?
My rights are not here for compromise, but thanks for your offer anyway.
PS the 2nd Amendment also says nothing about powder, primers, barrels, firing pins, tell me when to stop.
 
Sean said:
I give this cautionary advice as an experienced scientist.

With all due respect, Paul, you're a lawyer not an experienced scientist.

Sean

He constantlky 'claims' he's a lawyer...might just as well claim he's a scientist too...and an experienced one at that. Isn't it odd that nobody else on this forum what-so-ever constantly claims "what they are" ?

Its all just incredible isn't it.

What the heck, he probably stayed at a holiday inn sometime in his life :rotf:
 
I don't like public health less than you do. I do detest college educated putting out JUNK SCIENCE to defraud the public into thinking there is a problem concerning public health, when in fact they have another political agenda that they are pushing- and don't want the average guy on the street to know.

These are the worst of criminals- who benefit from the educational opportunities made available to them in this country- mostly supported by grants, and tax dollars, even for the small, so-called private colleges-- and use that education to LIE to people for their own narrow political agenda.Yet, if they pursue a popular cause- they never are prosecuted for their frauds, or even disciplined in their jobs. Many are rewarded for their lies- like Al Gore.

The American people deserve the truth- not lies about what the environment is and what it isn't. We need to know what we can fix, how much it will really cost us all, and more important, we need to know when government hasn't a clue what to do to fix a problem. When we know that someone in government is not going to wave a wand and fix some problem, then we all have a green light to do our own thinking and come up with possible solutions. That is where America, and Americans have proven to be the best in the World. Its in our innovation, and invention that we excel and outdistant all other countries in this world. The world looks to America for solutions to all world problems, but stabs us in the back because we are able to help. They don't want to change themselves and the cultural problems their societies create that contribute to their public health and medical problems, but they expect us to send aid everytime there is a problem. We don't even get a " Thank You" from these other countries and peoples.

You might think that as we approach the 50th anniversary of The Peace Corps, and other programs that have literally rebuilt societies all over the world that someone out there might just want to declare a special day of Thanksgiving to give thanks to the American People for our generosity, and willingness to help. I have NO expectation that we will ever be repaid the "loans" we have made over the years to foreign governments, and for the direct aid to the people.

I absolutely have no tolerance for liars, and the better educated the liars are, and the more voice they are given by our Press, the more I want them locked up for LIFE. We did have a water pollution problem in this country, but the strides made in the past 40 years have boggled the mind. Our waters are so much cleaner now than they were 50 years ago, that if our ancestors could come back to life from 1000 years ago, they would not recognize how clean the waters are today, even compared to their time.

We had a much bigger air pollution problem 50 years ago- and even worse, 70 years ago, when all home heating was done with coal or wood burning furnaces. If you think the air is polluted today, you should see pictures of our air over cities as it existed in 1950, and before.

Yes, we still have some problems, but we have made great strides, and are making greater strides. We are so far ahead of the rest of the world that it screams. Russia, China, and Africa put out more pollutants into their air, that affects the globe, than we have in years. We have no control over those continents and countries. We can show the world solutions that we have found- that inventive American again-- but we can't make the world follow our example.

In the 1990s, we were told that Green House Gases were responsible for the Earth COOLING. In the 2000s, we were told that Green House Gases are responsible for the Eart WARMING, and predictions of rises in ocean levels, huge floods that would inundate our coastal cities, and other dire predictions were all based on "cherry-picked " data to show a sharp increase in the Earth's temperature, when there has not been one. Gore's data chose readings only from weather stations in large cities, where the presense of so much brick, concrete and asphalt hold heat and warm the air artificially, and ignorred the readings from Rural and small-town weather stations where the readings reflect more accurately the air temperatures- day in and day out. That is how he was able to write his book about " Global Warming" screaming " The Sky is Falling", and earned his Nobel Award, and his Oscar for the movie made by his Hollywood supporters on his book. So, like the Oliver Stone movie on the JFK assassination, which totally omits Key, undeniable facts to come up with Jim Garrison's crazy conspiracy theory, People today still believe that there is a " Global Warming " crisis, that is man made, and that JFK was assassinated as the result of a Conspiracy.

Right.

And, " Rock and Roll " movies currupts our youth, Horror comic books cause kids to become bloodthirsty killers, violent video games cause people to run out into the streets and commit mass murder, etc.

I would hope your interest in good Science guiding our efforts to identify real problems, and find cures for them, will be at least as important to you as your interest in a " Green environment. "
 
Paul,

So I figured it out... There has been a conspiracy over the last 10 years to assassinate the character of scientists in this country. Once I thought it might be a plan by some alien culture hoping to take over the planet, but now I believe it has actually been masterminded by our own lawyers who are secretly po'ed that every one hates and distrusts them more than even used car salesmen. I'm certain you could successfully argue that lead is actually an essential micronutrient, but I somehow doubt you actually put it on your Wheaties in the morning. :wink:

Sean
 
I found a copy of the obituary for Common Sense. I'll miss him...


The Death of Common Sense
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sad passing of Common Sense

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the
worm; life isn't always fair and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place.

Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing
a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after
lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only
worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental
consent to administer Tylenol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a
student; but, could not inform the parents when a student became
pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became
contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better
treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a
burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to
realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in
her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason.

In the end, Common Sense was tragically killed when a woman ran him over with her SUV. The woman was on her way to pick up a social assistance check, and failed to see Common Sense on the sidewalk because she was talking on the cell phone and putting on her makeup. The woman was an illegal immigrant, and so no charges were laid as her government funded defense lawyer argued she technically was not here. The driver received a sizeable settlement from the auto maker, which will be covered by the taxpayer-funded bail out package.

Common Sense is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame and I'm A Victim.


Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.
 
10 gauge said:
Thats the spirit Baron, with this great idea we will make this world a safer place. :grin:
With all kidding aside I think we all know that this is manure and its just about people control, control the people.
Theres an old saying in government, if the government does not have control of it, then its out of control and then must be controled. :shake:

"Why should I trade one tyrant 3,000 miles away for 3,000 tyrants one mile away."
 
Here's a similar thread:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...982/post/614901/hl/toxic/fromsearch/1/#614874

As I cut away the damaged meat from around the wound channel I'm not too concerned.

I chew my rabbits and grouse carefully. Lord knows I've bit down on dozens of pellets and likely swallowed a few over the years. Other than the seizures, hallucinations and occasional psychotic episodes I haven't noticed any problems.

:wink:
 
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I just read an article compairing lead levels in rual childern in hunting famlies that were lower than their urban counterparts.
If you use a large slow moving all lead projectile you will 100 percent weight rentention and prabably total pass through or the bullet will stop in the hide.
How many of us here has seen this.
It's those tiny little bullets moving 3,000 fps or better that fragment and maby could contaminate meat.
usally what I see as a guide is blooding that is cut away and not used.
 
Greenmtnboy said:
I just read an article compairing lead levels in rual childern in hunting famlies that were lower than their urban counterparts.
If you use a large slow moving all lead projectile you will 100 percent weight rentention and prabably total pass through or the bullet will stop in the hide.
How many of us here has seen this.
It's those tiny little bullets moving 3,000 fps or better that fragment and maby could contaminate meat.
usally what I see as a guide is blooding that is cut away and not used.

Man, I agree wholeheartedly, but we have to get someone interested in looking at this issue from a round ball stand point before those tiny little 3000 fps bullets get the best of us from a legislative standpoint. This issue is gaining momentum and the longer we keep our heads buried in the sand about it, the worse the result will be. I recommend that we all contact our state game and fish departments and pass on our concern to them. Contact your state and federal representatives. Tell them you hunt with muzzleloaders and are concerned about this issue. Tell them that it is an important part of our hunting tradition that we cannot afford to lose. There is no replacement for lead projectiles in these guns. Tell them what Greenmountain said in his message above an ask that they consider that not all lead projectiles act the same.

Sean
 
Sean said:
Paul,

So I figured it out... There has been a conspiracy over the last 10 years to assassinate the character of scientists in this country. Once I thought it might be a plan by some alien culture hoping to take over the planet, but now I believe it has actually been masterminded by our own lawyers who are secretly po'ed that every one hates and distrusts them more than even used car salesmen. I'm certain you could successfully argue that lead is actually an essential micronutrient, but I somehow doubt you actually put it on your Wheaties in the morning. :wink:

Sean


The REASON most intelligent people dont like LIARS errrrr Lawrs is that they tend to manipulate for $$ and far to often the manipulation is NOT for the betterment of humanity.
THAT being said guess why "Scientists" are distrusted in this day anf age.......Follow the money. The majority of scientists get paid by grants from politically LEFT, Liberal, Socialist entities be that the Goberment (In various forms), Pubelick Skools, Etc to "prove" that God, the Constitution, and Capitolism is going to elimiante all life as we know it in the year 4015. And you know what? Its all :bull: :bull: :bull: And the "Scientists"" AKA hores know its :bull: (Golbal Warming, Lead Poisioning, Gren House Gas, Mrgerine VS Butter, etc, etc, etc) but they dont care cuz they are gettin paid!
You might recognize the FACT that we have lost the 3 step method of moveing from a hypothisis to a theory to fact to TODAY Scientists go from a "feeling" to a political agenda to "Fact". You know like how evolution has somehow passed theory and made it to "fact" yet still NOT proveable :barf:

All that bieng said; Paul I have really enjoyed your writtings here and assure you that you are DEAD ON on this issue!
 
Wattsy: You have to forgive me some of my rants. I know its seems impossible, but I occasionally leave my " Lawyer " hat aside, and put on my scientist hat, and that is where I am so angry about Junk Science. Good Science is very hard work. There is a Scientific Method, that when followed scrupulously, yieds correct results. But the young guys don't want to spend the years doing the research needed to find new and correct answers. You are correct, in that so many of the latest scientific " news " is spawned by people fighting for grants from one political interest group or another. And, Political groups actively seek out scientists that they can use for their causes. I never had any problem saying " NO!" to them, but it has cost me.

And, I realize that finding a Lawyer who is also a Scientist is an unexpected, if not unheard-of occasion, so grab the smelling salts, and the pulmotor. You will survive the shock, to be sure. I was pulled, kicking and screaming into becoming a scientist, I can assure you, because I thought it was a short question to be solved, that it would be done in 3 months tops, and I could go back to representing people as a lawyer. No one would know. Not even my own family. :cursing: As I said once before, if anyone ever says to you,

"Hey,Why don't WE do our own research?"

run screaming into the night and save yourself! Don't make the same mistake I did! :shocked2: :youcrazy: :nono: :rotf: :blah: :hatsoff:
 
First they came for all the 3000fps people and you all stood there and did nothing. Then latter they came for your little lead balls and you all cryed because there was no one left to help you. :(
Sounds like you all love your front stuffers but dont like the men who originally used them which gave you your "FREEDOMS". :(
There are quotes on the side of this thread from your "Founding Fathers" why cant you guys have just a little respect for the people who died for birth of your "NATION".
Anyone of you men that would sell out your Nation/freedoms, I could only imagine what you would sell out your own families for.
 
Stumpkiller said:
Here's a similar thread:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...982/post/614901/hl/toxic/fromsearch/1/#614874

As I cut away the damaged meat from around the wound channel I'm not too concerned.

I chew my rabbits and grouse carefully. Lord knows I've bit down on dozens of pellets and likely swallowed a few over the years. Other than the seizures, hallucinations and occasional psychotic episodes I haven't noticed any problems.

:wink:

Aw shucks, that ain't the lead shot causing that. It is the special mix of mushrooms that you pick to cook them with! :blah:
 
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10 gauge,

First of all, I do not believe we should not try to fight this issue. But it does make sense to do a broad-based survey of calibers, firearm types and projectiles to see if there really are problems if so where they lie. These issues can then be addressed within our own industry instead of through legislation. Lets say for arguments sake that the really big issues pop up with the ultra mag high velocity guns like the 7 mag and up. If that's the case then what if all people who wanted a 450 yard gun had to go to x-bullets. Most of them shoot them at big game anyway. My point is that if given the option of self regulation or burying my head in the sand until the lawyers and politicians get after it, I'll take the former any time.

I am not a fan of the slippery slope argument. The other side uses it against us because they know we will stand up to defend things that 98% of the world sees as objectionable. When that happens they win no matter what we think. If given the choice to fight on the slope we need to try to move the fight to level ground. We are much better off being knowledgeable about the effects of the guns we shoot and trying to minimize them than allowing this to go to the courts over a question of whether the EPA should regulate this issue. Trust me, even though Paul might say that lead tastes like maple syrup and makes you smart, the toxicological literature on lead is voluminous and will be hard to fight if it comes down to that.

Respectfully,

Sean
 
NO one questions that lead can be poisonous, Sean. If you really read those reports, they are long on the obvious, and short on any empirical evidence showing that shooting and hunting are responsible for lead poisoning in game or people.

If Urban kids have higher lead in blood levels than do rural kids, who eat game killed with real lead balls and bullets all the time, doesn't that tell you that the source of the lead they are " ingesting" is coming from something else in their environment? Like the the lead Water PIPES used in most older city neighborhoods? Or the poor housekeeping practices in their homes that allows unattended children to handle and taste anything and everything, when no one ever cleans up the dust, and dirt in the apartments?

YOU are SO WRONG about the slippery slope, Sean. Its obviously you have not witnessed the battles, and your prescription for fighting these deceitful politicians, over the past 30 years. If you give them an inch, they take an inch every year, and pretty soon, you have so many regulations, and laws, most of which contradict each other, that people are discouraged from trying to own a gun, much less enjoy shooting sports, and hunting.

I have seen this here in Illinois, because your very " strategy " has been used as lobby tactics by both the NRA and the Ill. St. Rifle Assoc. The result is that we have seen more than 30 new laws passed over the past 30 years, each one adding more burdens, and confusion to the public's understanding of what is legal and what isn't.A couple of new organizations have started up here in my state, in the last 5 years, and this last year was the first time that NO new gun laws were passed by the Illinois Legislature, going back at least 30 years.

If you really read the enemy's literature, as I have, you will find out that this is their LONG RANGE strategy. They have no expectation of passing gun bans in the short term. They simply intend to constantly bombard the public with the idea that" people cannot be trusted to own guns", while they slowly make it more inconvenient for people to own them. Eventually, the number of people who own guns, or know anyone who does, or who shoot any kind of a gun will be so small that they will easiy pass their gun bans with a majority vote. IN the meanwhile, as gun sales drop, more and more of the gunmakers will close their doors, so that in the end, it will be a race to see who gets to turn the lights out on your Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

I am proud to be a "Barracuda" advocate on behalf of American gun owners, a title given to me by the wife of a friend after watching me take on 4 opponents in a Gun Control debated and kick their butts.The people who sit back and never say anything, never pay any of the bills, but let the rest of us who do speak out, do their work for them for free, are the guys I want to kick in the butt.

If you think you are going to win anything with these people by conceding junk science claims they make, you have not seen what lies they have on the back burner to tell the public next! Pay attention to the moves being made in Australia, Great Britain, and Canada, where their world wide agenda is much further along than it is here. Watch what kind of restrictive legislation is being offered in all the European countries, and how they take advantage of any kind of tragedy involving guns.

First, they told us that cheap, small caliber, " Saturday night specials" are the firearms of choice for criminals. We banned them.

Now, its expensive, multiple shot capacity Semi-automatic pistols that are the Weapons of choice of criminals, or semi-auto " assault rifles ", or black guns, Or " Sniper Rifles"( any hunting rifle with a scope sight on it)! They even labeled single shot pistols designed for varmint or deer hunting as " Sniper pistols " in a legislative ban proposed several years ago in the Illinois Legislature.

You think they won't get around to your musket? Sean???? That Was an Assault gun in its day, after all!


Dream on.

And when they do, who will be left to stand with you to fight them off?

So, you go ahead and slide down that slippery slope with your buddies. I will be standing at the top fighting the SOBs with every resource I can bring to bear.

If you aren't a part of the solution, you are just a part of the problem. :hmm: :cursing:
 
Paul,
You seem to be a bit more informed on the lead issue.
Can you keep us updated?
I talked to the head of our local fish and game and he said not to worry, this is the same guy that said inlines would never be legal in CO.
This is one issue that worries me because so many sheeple buy into it.
I mean RB's aside think of all the folks including you and I that reload cast bullets.
This could effect not just our hobby interest but our way of life.
I don't know if the NRA being the largest gun lobby in the US is on the bus with this issue but man it's time for them to see where this may go and to act, they are a million dollar lobby group and it seems like they could hire unbiased folks to do a study and publish the work.
We need to attack now instead of being caught on our heels and have to defend our rights.
 
Thats the spirit men, we have to stick together and fight off these SOB wolves.
Today its ban lead next it will be ban flint, on the grounds that people are getting cut and bleeding and that the SOBs are only looking out for our safety. If you think I am being silly about the flint, just remember how many knife restriction laws are in this country already.
 
on behalf of the thousands of the silent ones, thank you paul and paul alikes for the fights you are fighting for all of us.
i intentionally skipped over this topoic as the idea seemed silly to me, but all the info exchanged and angles discovered make this a very hot issue for all of us who enjoy hunting and gun games. i am about to call some people nad make them aware of the issue.
again, thank you paul and others who are o0nthe forefront in this fight!
 
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