lead shot

[chuck-ia]

went to the range yesterday with the 20 ga. fowler, shot about 15 patched round ball, and 2 loads of no. 5 shot. I haven't shot a lot of shot through this gun yet, I guess the gun has been shot less than 100 times since I finished it. when cleaning it I noticed there seemed to be a lot of lead fowling in the barrel, in other words the barrel would not come clean. I used a brass bore brush, lots of patches with warm water and soap, while drying the barrel it appeared to be clean, I use white flannel patches, then I ran a patch with ballistol on it down the bore and it came out black, this doesn't happen when I don't shoot lead shot. I then used some jb compound in the bore with water to get the lead out, allso used the bore brush. do any of you have this problem with leading? this is a new colerain barrel, maybe the barrel has to be broke in? I haven't shot a lot of shot through this, it really doesn't pattern well at 25 yards using over shot wad, half of a cushion wad, over shot card shot, and over shot card. I made up some paper shot cups, (thanks roundball) and will give them a try. not really concerned about the pattern right now as I haven't spent a lot of time figuring out what the gun likes. more concerned about the leading. I am sure the shot cups will take care of the leading, as the shot won't be touching the barrel, but not sure I want to use them on a regular basis. any advice? flinch

 

[gmww]

Have you considered a lead bore cleaner? Works real good for me. :hmm:

 

[AZ-Robert]

Yep, check your local gun shop for a lead solvent. You can also find them on-line at Brownells and other places. Be careful -- some of them warn on their labels that they will take off varnish, paint, hair, etc... avoid getting it on your stock.

Lead fouling is one of the reasons I'm experimenting with paper "shot cups." I expect they will help with the pattern too.

 

[Dave K]

I first use a plastic type of bore brush with a patch over it to scrub the bore. I will use kind of a twisting motion all the way down and back to help bend the bristles of the brush. After the typical water scrub, I do this with Ballistol. Usually about 5-6 patches per bore and they are pretty clean. I doubt if you will ever get a lily white patch though. It is just a little gray in color and NO RUST!

 

[Lorne Johnson]

It's lead fouling all right. Happens in modern guns if the load doesn't use a shot cup. After 30 or so rounds one can actually feel an increase in recoil. Various solvents get it out. I use HP 32 from Ballistic Products. It's not the fastest, but it's non-toxic to humans, unless one drinks it. Wouldn't mind finding something better though.

 

[gmww]

Theres this cloth lead remover we used to clean our stainless, model 66, revolvers with when we use to carry them as sidearms. Not for use on blued metal but on bare metal it worked great. It was yellow in color and is still sold. I'll have to look it up and update this post. Worked great and fast.

Link to lead removing cloth.

However, before I'd use this on my ML I'd check to see if it was safe for regular steel. :hmm:

 

[TN.Frank]

You could probably use some 4 ought steel wool to clean out the lead. It's non-scratching, won't remove any metal, just the lead and would be fairly cheap too. I think this is one of the reasons that some of the older guns have pits in the barrel, the lead covers up some fouling and holds it against the barrel where it eats away at it until it forms a pit. I'm going to try and come up with somekind of paper shot cup as well, I don't like lead in my barrel.

 

[Joel/Calgary]

I'm going to try and come up with somekind of paper shot cup as well, I don't like lead in my barrel.

There are a variety of possibilities, including one really easy one that almost looks traditional. I use it a lot because my 16ga has rough bores and scrubs the shot really badly if I don't use some sort of protection.

Picture a 2-petal shotcup without a cushion or a gas seal, similar to the old ALCAN shot protector, for example. Think of it being made out of heavy paper (drywall spark-tape works in my 16ga and is a perfect width) or light card stock (business cards, file cards, bristol board). Open that out flat and draw a rectangle around it - that's all you need. I'm going to be lazy and copy-&-paste some notes I wrote up on it.

Hope this helps,
Joel

-----------------------------------------

2-petal "clamshell" shotcup:
- This is similar to the Alcan "shot protector"
- It can be made from either thick paper or light cardstock.
- The basic shape is a rectangle, with a width of 1/2 the bore circumference, or just under, and a length of the bore diameter plus twice the height of the shot charge; possibly with cuts or cutouts around the "base" in the centre of the rectangle to facilitate folding. They are reasonably easily laid out using hand-drawing, spreadsheet cells (without full base details), or a CAD program. With manual or CAD drawing, one can add details of the shotcup's base, and secondary lines for a narrower petal width for use inside cartridges or for inner petals of "fat-cross" shotcups (see below). This gives a compact layout with little wasted material.
- If the material is not too stiff, the shotcup can be made from the initial rectangle with no further cutting: wrap it around the end of the "former" (see below), align and form into a cylinder, then fold in the "corners" on the base under.
- If stiffer, one can either cut away excess around the base, or make cuts into the base and fold the excess up into short reinforcements, either inside or over the outside of the base of the petals.
- A typical spreadsheet-cell layout I use looks like:
-------------------------------
| : \ | / : |
| : 16ga | : |
| : ---- + ---- : |
| : | 1.25oz Pb : |
| : / | \ : |
-------------------------------
In the actual spreadsheet, the boundaries are provides by the cell borders. The markings are done using a fixed-space font like Courier. The "cross" in the center helps one align it on the "former", the diagonal lines near the middle show (approximately) where to make the cuts to facilitate folding and wrapping cardstock, and the dotted lines near the ends show (approximately) where to trim it for a 1-oz shot charge instead of the 1.25oz.
- They are easy to form at loading, especially if pre-formed then opened out again for storage.
- Cardstock MAY help tighten the pattern a bit more than the paper, by holding the shot together somewhat until it all clears the muzzle and no is longer being accelerated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A "former" is a dowel or other cylinder around which one shapes, rolls, creases, etc. the shot protector to ready them for loading. It might be the "wad starter" (see below) or it might be a separate device. As noted below, it should be somewhat smaller than bore diameter, so that the finished shot protector just comfortably enters a fouled bore. The term is used by extension from the device of the same name used for rolling musket cartridges.

A "wad starter" is a device similar to a short-starter for balls or bullets, used for forming and/or inserting these shot protectors on loading, except possibly for a pre-formed shotcup or for a cartridge.
- The shaft should be long enough to insert the longest shotcup used so that it is slightly below the muzzle, yet short enough to allow one's fingers to fit comfortably around the handle and down the shaft far enough to hold the petals in place when forming and inserting the shot protector, while holding the wad starter with the handle in one's palm.
- The shaft should be somewhat smaller than bore diameter, so that the shot protector fits reasonably closely around it and just comfortably enters a fouled bore, while still allowing the starter to be withdrawn without pulling the shot protector back out. For example, I use a 5/8" dowel (.625", approx. 20ga) for a 16ga (.665") bore (stuck into a plastic champagne "cork" for a handle).
- In some cases, it is possible to use one's finger for this function, especially if the shot protectors have been preformed, or preformed, creased, then opened flat again (see below).

It is often easier to pre-form the shot protector, getting the petals even, creasing the edges of the base, etc., reopen it flat for compact storage and transportation, then reform it quickly on loading.

If one uses over-powder wads that require some force to ram down, it is probably preferable to ram these down first, then assemble the cushion wad (or the last o/p card, if no cushion is used), the shot protector, the shot (and buffer, if used), and the over-shot wad, and ram these down together, following the usual procedures to prevent an "air spring" pushing them back up.

 

[TN.Frank]

So it's kind of like a Paper Patch to hold the shot, interesting idea and it'd save a person from having to glue a tube up and cut it into sections then fold and glue the ends. Sweet, I wonder if it'd work with something thinner like printer paper? :hmm:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

So it's kind of like a Paper Patch to hold the shot, interesting idea and it'd save a person from having to glue a tube up and cut it into sections then fold and glue the ends.

Yeah - it's sort of half of a cross-patch for a conical.

Sweet, I wonder if it'd work with something thinner like printer paper? :hmm:

Likely have to at least double it, or go to 24lb bond, or both. If I'm printing the layout, I use 67-lb 80-lb or 110-lb Bristol cardstock that will feed through most printers or copiers. Note that drifferent types of paper and card stock use different areas for the weights, so they don't compare directly - 67lb bristol is NOT 3 times the thickness of 24lb or even 20lb bond. The metric weights are consistent, if you want to compare them.

I've thought of taking ones made of heavy card stock and doubling them to try with steel shot. Set the shot protectors one inside the other but at right angles, so the petals from one cover any gap from the other. There's another kind of do-it-yourself shotcup with two or more thicknesses of card that looks more like a conventional steel-shot shotcup that works well, but it's nowhere's as traditonal, and is more involved in setup. I just haven't had the range time to try the steel loads.

Joel

Hmmm - the ASCII graphics didn't come out on that last opst - let me try again. with underscores to fill the blank spaces (just tried periods - dont work).

-------------------------------------------
|_:_________\__|__/_________:_|
|_:_____16ga___|____________:_|
|_:_____-----___+___-----_____:_|
|_:____________|_1.25oz Pb__:_|
|_:_________/__|__\_________:_|
------------------------------------------

Closer. Don't have time to keep fussing - gotta go. pretenfd teh underscores are blanks and everything lines up.

 

[musketman]

So it's kind of like a Paper Patch to hold the shot, interesting idea and it'd save a person from having to glue a tube up and cut it into sections then fold and glue the ends.

Yeah - it's sort of half of a cross-patch for a conical.

Sweet, I wonder if it'd work with something thinner like printer paper? :hmm:

I have made paper shot cups from penny wrapping tubes for my .75 caliber, I bet a dime's wrapping tube would work for that 20 gauge... :winking: :grin:

 

[AZ-Robert]

I bet a dime's wrapping tube would work for that 20 gauge...

If it is a true 20 ga (0.615") the dime wrappers will be too big. An unclipped dime is 0.705." (I peed on the electric fence with this one, trying the fit of the dime in the barrel before I went looking for wrappers :grin: ) I ended up wrapping them as suggested here by Bill White:
[url] http://members.aol.com/illinewek/faqs/shotcup.htm[/url]

As a former, I tried a 5/8" dowel sanded down to make a tight-fighting cup, and a 1/2" dowel. The 1/2" dowel looks like the way to go... gives a slightly loose fit using two wraps of regular printer paper fished out of the trash bin, no sanding required.

I rolled up about a dozen off each dowel and will give them a range test shortly, looking to see if they perform differently.

 

[musketman]

I bet a dime's wrapping tube would work for that 20 gauge...

If it is a true 20 ga (0.615") the dime wrappers will be too big. An unclipped dime is 0.706." (I peed on the electric fence with this one, trying the fit of the dime in the barrel before I went looking for wrappers :grin: )

I am thinking it will still work if the tube isn't fully expanded in diameter (like when it is full of dimes), this way it will have some give to it...

The loose shot will give and move as the tube is eased into the tube...

I will try this out by using a nickel tube (larger tube) in my bess instead of a penny wrapper...

I will report what happens here...

 

[roundball]

I've tried the dime wrappers, too big for a .20ga as they normally exist.

However, dime wrappers (and all size coin wrappers) can be cut lengthwise with a single scissors cut, which then allows the seam to overlap, making smaller diameters to fit properly in various bores

 

[TN.Frank]

Ahh, my beloved coin wrappers. I've used em' for pre-loads of powder and shot in the past, never thought about using em' for a shot sleave in my smoothbore though. Thanks for the idea, I think I'll get some penny wrappers and see what I can some up with. :thumbsup:

 

[Rebel]

Dime wrappers are too big for a .20 ga, they do work well in a .12 ga though. I tried them in my .20 and .12.

 

[chuck-ia]

I made up a bunch using post it notes. hopefully try them this weekend and see how they work. I am probably wrong but it seems to me that coin tubes would be too thick and send the whole thing down range like a slug. I would think you would want the paper to tear as it exits the barrel, and seperate from the shot. I used a dowel, (can't remember what size) that would slide in the barrel, then wrapped it with tape till there was a little slop, then wrapped a pre cut post it note around the dowel, after wrapped there is about 1/8" of the cup with just one thickness of post it note down the cup, this, hopefully is where it will tear when it exits the barrel, oh, after wrapping the post it note around the dowel I then slide it off the dowel about 3/8" and fold the end over, after I made of few of these I dripped some beez wax in the fold. I think roundball has a better explanation on how to do this. the shot cups I made will hold approx 1-1/8 oz of shot. I have only shot a couple of these just messing around, and the pattern seemed better than with no cup at 25 yards. but, with hunting season just around the corner, and my new fowler, time to get serious about working out a pattern. flinch

 

[Dave K]

Everyone should try it, but for some reason it didn't work for me. The shot, just became a slug instead of a pattern. I have very good luck with just plain old shot down the bore as they used to do. Another thing is for me I would find it very inconvient to fumble with the shot in these rolls. I load from a shot flask and I can carry about 3-4lbs of shot in the flask which converts to around 48-64 shots. Depending on which flask I am using that day. On a good day of doves, I have darn near emptied a shot flask as well!

 

[roundball]

'Shot Slugs'

From my range trips testing different paper shot cup configurations, my conclusion was if the paper shot cup did not burst inside the bore before muzzle exit, it was going through the target as a slug.

It seemed that the diameter of a filled, seated paper shot cup still had to be enough smaller than the bore diameter to allow it to expand enough at setback time so it would burst before muzzle exit.

If they cleared the muzzle still intact, without any 'petal' cuts in the paper, there was nothing to flare open and in less than the blink of an eye the entire 'shot slug' would be through the target.

After a few range trips where a fair amount of money was[url] spent...in[/url] gasoline alone...I knew that when they acted properly, they produced outstanding results, simulating a choke and great long range patterns.....but I also knew I would still get a 'shot slug' often enough not to want to risk it happening at the very rare moment of getting the bead on a Tom Turkey's head at 40yds.

So for less money than I'd already wasted at the range, I sent my .62cal barrel to a gunsmith and had him "Jug Choke" it Full.

Now it's just powder, Oxyoke wad, #6 shot, and OS card...averages 16 pellets in a 5" circle at 40 yards...outstanding shot performance...and PRBs still shoot perfectly through it as well.

So based upon all the above, my recommendation to anyone trying to improve shot performance in a cylinder bore barrel by using paper shot cups is to go spend the $60 to get it Jug Choked and be done with it.

:thumbsup:

 

[chuck-ia]

could you give me the address of the guy who jug choked it? flinch