leading flint

[armymedic.2]

i want to try wrapping my flint in lead instead of leather because my sparks work but are pretty lame. What i don't understand is, should the lead wrap all the way around the back of the flint like my leather does? Do i need to shave a piece off of my ingot, or should i just pound 2 balls flat and put on the top and bottom. Thanks. I use english flint so the lead should take nicely (i imagine the cut agate is too smooth to be held well?)

 

[Harddog]

If "your sparks work, but are pretty lame.", I would be looking for some other reason for lame sparks besides the leather flint wrap.

Randy Hedden

 

[George Holton]

one fifty cal ball flattened fairly thin will wrap from top to bottom around the back of the flint ,notch for screw clearence, tighten as hard as you can. Bob

 

[armymedic.2]

ok, ill give her a try. i just want to see if it makes a difference. thanks bob.

 

[roundball]

If "your sparks work, but are pretty lame.", I would be looking for some other reason for lame sparks besides the leather flint wrap.
Randy Hedden

Agree...if you once had a good sparking lock that has faded so to speak, and using a heavier (lead) flint wrap produces more sparks, then you're just offsetting / covering up some other problem...adding a lead flint wrap would be an abnormal remedy.

 

[Homesteader]

I second (third?) Lamedog & Roundball. When I removed the lead wrap from my Bess and replaced it with a leather one I was a little worried. Sparks just as well, though, and I don't believe it transfers as much of the shock to the lock parts. (Could be my imagination, but there ya are anyway.)

 

[paulvallandigham]

Lead will hold them both well. The advantage of using the lead wrap is usually a hotter spark, more of them, and because they are hotter, they last longer than spark thrown from the same flint wrapped in leather.

The other reason is because leather acts like a shock absorber, boucing back off the face of the frizzen after the edge cuts steel, pulling bits of steel burrs off to clog your edge. After awhile, you get either no sparks or only a few dull orange sparks, and you do have trouble igniting your priming powder. Use lead and you should get white hot sparks, lots of them, and they should bounce in the flash pan at least twice before going out. Without the shock absorber, the flint digs out the steel bits, at much hotter temperatures( that is why they look 'white hot') and throws them into your flashpan.

See my article on tuning flintlocks.

www.[url] chuckhawks.com/flintlocks.htm[/url]
You could have a frizzen that is too soft, and needs to be rehardened. Check recent postings under gunsmithing bench on hardening frizzens.
Paul

 

[armymedic.2]

my spark was never really that great, that is why i wanted to try the lead wrap. it did improve. They are not white, but they are amber and there are more of them now with the lead. The frizzen could also be too soft, i agree. i have only shot this rifle about 50-75 times though, so i didn't figure it came from the factory soft. or do they? i don't know.

 

[mbw907]

Paul, please explain why leather would produce less sparks than lead. It would seem that the flint held snugly would spark the same regardless of what it would be wrapped in. Just asking because I want to learn.

 

[markinstettler]

Shannon, I think there are two reasons why people recommend lead over leather: Inertia and elasticity.

A lead wrap will have a lot more mass than its leather counter-part. The thinking goes that the greater mass will result in more energy for making sparks. In my opinion, this thinking is wrong because of simple high school physics. The extra mass will cause slower motion with the end result being exactly the same energy. (One could use the same reasoning to argue that the extra mass won't cause damage to a lock.) Perhaps the slower motion will make a difference in the performance of some locks. Perhaps.

Lead is much less elastic than leather. It just doesn't bounce back. So the flint won't be as likely to bounce on and off the frizzen. To me this is a valid reason for using a lead wrap.

Except for the fact that I don't like coming into contact with lead any more than I have to, I'm ambivalent to the use of it as a wrap on my rifle. If it works better than leather for some folks, great!

 

[mbw907]

Thank you for the explanation, Mark. That puts things in a brighter light for me. I was not thinking along those lines, but rather the actual flint sparking. I see your reasoning.

 

[Wes/Tex]

In the Whatever dept., the French used lead and the British used leather for military purposes during the Napoleonic Era and possibly before. If the above explainations are correct, it may be from the use of admittedly inferior powder. The British had an advantage in being able to import nitre from Bengal through their East India Company. The military charges used at that time were 8 drams for Besses or 3/4 that (6 drams) for "carbines". The French had to use 12.5 drams to duplicate British musket loads. DO NOT try these powder loads with modern powder!!!! :shake:

 

[BLAHMAN]

my spark was never really that great, that is why i wanted to try the lead wrap. it did improve. They are not white, but they are amber and there are more of them now with the lead. The frizzen could also be too soft, i agree. i have only shot this rifle about 50-75 times though, so i didn't figure it came from the factory soft. or do they? i don't know.

Is it a factory made gun or foes it have a lock such as a Siler, Chambers, L&R or Davis? It helps to know the type of lock we are talking about.

It could also be the type of flint you are using: is it a sawed flint, an English black flint, what position is the bevel, how does the flint strike the frizzen (high or low)....there's a lot of variables.

As for leather versus lead, I've always used leather and have never run into any problems with using it.

I've read Paul's article, but I'll continue to use leather, as I tune my locks and they work very consistantly.

 

In the Whatever dept., the French used lead and the British used leather for military purposes during the Napoleonic Era and possibly before. If the above explainations are correct, it may be from the use of admittedly inferior powder. The British had an advantage in being able to import nitre from Bengal through their East India Company. The military charges used at that time were 8 drams for Besses or 3/4 that (6 drams) for "carbines". The French had to use 12.5 drams to duplicate British musket loads. DO NOT try these powder loads with modern powder!!!! :shake:

This is odd--it was my understanding that the French made the best black powder in the era. They made a science out of it. When the DuPonts started their BP plant, they sent family members back to France to study the latest French technology for BP making.

 

[armymedic.2]

the lock is the one that came on the pedersoli blue ridge. My flint strikes nicely about 1/2-2/3 up the frizzen, and it tosses it open without delay. My pan charge ignites everytime as long as i keep fouling off of it. I am using 7/8 english flint. the sparks got better with the lead. then i knapped a new edge using the shouldered rod tool described in other posts(first time knapping, and it went swimmingly well-lot easier than i imagined). The sparks improved more. now there are probably in betweeen 2 dozen to 30 sparks comming off when i drop the hammer. a couple of them bounce, but most do not. They are amber and not white. like i said, i do achieve ignition every time when it is free of fouling, but for obvious reasons i would like to improve my sparks! i don't like touching lead either, but i already cast my own balls, and clean all of my dads guns for him plus mine, so i figure i'm damned anyway. plus, i only need one more kid!

 

[LRB]

The use of lead over leather around the flint can cause extra stress on sporting locks, and cause the cock to break. Not common, but possible enough that Chambers, and L&R, will void any warranties if done. If you are getting amber colored sparks, that indicates to me that your frizzen is plenty hard. Maybe the main spring is a tad weak, and it is possible for a frizzen to be too hard. Bright orange, to bright red orange sparks, are an indication of proper tempering of the frizzen, but not positively. There are other variables, such as type of steel, and decarb in the heat treat. From what you describe, I would consider the mainspring power first, then look at other possibilities.

 

[faw3]

I had a problem getting any sparks from a new CVA this year, knowing nothing about them but reading all I could on it I tryed all kinds of leather with just a little luck now and then - mostly the flint fell out and pan didnt open. I took a 32 ball and hammer and flattened it a bit more than paper thick, cut it to fit flint so the weight is really down to nothing, and it opens up into the pan and doesnt fall out anymore (was the main problem I think) So I would advise if you use lead to use a 32 or smaller flattened to bigger than 3/4 x 58 I think flint and trim most of that off I leave just enough to seat it in the jaws. Fred :hatsoff: Just a idea. :hmm:

 

[armymedic.2]

when i did it i flattened one of my .54 balls, and notched the back to fit the screw. it holds well, but am i understanding that i should trim it to avoid unnecessary shock to the lock? icould always do same with a .36, but i didn't think that thin would hold well.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The wrap for a flint can be very thin and still hold quite well. It holds the flint by conforming to the very shallow dips and rises on the flint. My flint wrap weighs only about 15 grains, although I began by flattening a .50 caliber round ball that weighs about 180 grains! Obviously, most of the lead ball is cut away as I fit the wrap to the flint.

Jim Chambers is wrong. But its his business, and he can modify his warranties any way he wants. You are going to break a cock that doesn't have defects in it, by using a lead wrap vs. a leather wrap on your flint.

What you do get is a wrap that eliminates the rebounding, or " bounce " off the frizzen, that clogs the edges with steel burrs, and prevents a clean cut. The double tap on the frizzen by the cock where a leather wrap does far more " damage" to a frizzen and cock, than occurs when using a lead wrap, and hitting the frizzen just once. The slight extra weigh helps the edge of the flint cut into the steel and scrape off bits of steel at high temperatures, to throw into the flashpan.

If a frizzen is not hard enough, or if the springs are out of balance, you are going to have problems with ignition, no matter which wrap you choose to use.

Try them both using the same flint, in the same gun, in the dark of a room or in very low light, so you can see the color of the sparks and the amount of sparks that each wrap delivers. Use the wrap that throws the most sparks that last the longest after they hit the pan. DO NOT TAKE MY WORD ON THIS. FIGURE IT OUT YOURSELF. That is why God gave you a brain.

 

[Mike Brooks]

LEAD!>>>>LEATHER!>>>>LEAD! LEATHER!>>>>LEAD! I love these debates. :rotf: