nchawkeye
58 Cal.
Thanks Paul, I replaced the leather wrap on my small Siler with lead and you are correct...I now have more sparks, they last longer and are hotter...
Good Tip... :hatsoff:
Good Tip... :hatsoff:
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leading flint
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MarkInStettler said:
This is a great example of how the cock does or doesn't "bounce" when using leather or lead.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/203944[/url]/
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paulvallandigham
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ACttually, Claude, Pletch's video is too dark to see much of anything. If you have a still shot of the action you can see a slight blur of the edge of the flint, and the back of the flint which represents the action of the leather " giving " like a shock absorber. Its more like a double Tap, with a fast semi-auto handgun, than a easily seen " Bounce ", I have used the term" Bounce " because it accurately describes what actually happens.
I know you are sceptical, but it is happening. If you look at the small size of the bits of steel clogging the edge of the flint, you will realize just how small the movement is that tears steel out of that hardened frizzen, and leaves them stuck in the flint edge. If it were easy to see, everyone would have seen it, and we would not behaving this diagreement.
So you don't acribe any mystical powers to me, let me assure you that I did not see the " bounce" either, and wasn't looking for it, until my late friend, Don Latter, who grew up fiddling with flintlocks and taught himself how to tune locks before I came into the picture, showed it to me. Even then, the better visible evidence was the before and after examination of the edge of the flint, first wrapped in his old leather wrap, well worn, and dried, and flattened, and then when wrapped in a thin wrap of lead. We used the same flint with both wraps, so that only the wraps were different. We used magnifying lens to examine the edge of the flint, in strong sunlight, just so we would not miss anything.
I had never seen a flint fired a couple of times with a leather wrap- what everyone was using- that did not have metal bits in the edge. Changing to lead was the first time I didn't see metal. We continued to shoot that particular flint, and re-examined it every 5 shots or so, throughout the day. Because the angle of the flint to frizzen was correct, and the flint scraped metal off, while self knapping, we found no bits of metal in the edge after firing an additional 20 rds. Don kept track of that particular flint, and got more than 140 strikes out of it before it was too short to hold in the jaws of his cock.
To explain what was difficult to see, we then experimented with flint and steel kits to see what kind of action was needed to get lots of sparks that were white hot in color. Then we asked how could the same flint cut different color sparks when the only thing changed was the flint wrap?
Don figured it out one after noon, when someone gave him some scraps of tanned leather, that was fairly thick. For the heck of it, he cut a small strip, and used it to make a new leather wrap for his flint. When he put it in the jaws, and tightened down, the few sparks that were created were barely orange, and died as soon as they struck the pan- no bouncing sparks off the pan. That was worse performance than his dried out, old used leather wrap, so he put that leather wrap back on the flint, and the flint threw more sparks, orange, but at least they were hot enough to bounce off the pan. He got excited, and tried raw hide, some Parfletch scraps he had, tanned leather again, of different thicknesses, from several different animal sources. The thicker the leather wraps were, the few and colder the sparks they threw. But nothing threw three the shower of white hot sparks, that bounced twice in the pan before burning out, that the lead wrap produced. And, the bits of steel left in the flint edge were proportionate bigger in relation to the thickness of the leather used as a wrap.
The only way to explain what we were able to see, is what we eventually did see in a still photo taken with the aperature left open long enough to record the full movement of the cock, and the life of the sparks. It became very clear that what we saw with our eyes was real- fewer sparks, orange to dull orange in color using leather; a shower of sparks white in color using lead. And, using a manifying glass, you could see the slight blur of the edge as it rebounds off the frizzen. I am sure that this occurs in millionths of a second, so only very expensive time-lapse photography equipment would be able to catch it on film, and slow it down so we can see it. I don't have access to that kind of equipment.
I know you are sceptical, but it is happening. If you look at the small size of the bits of steel clogging the edge of the flint, you will realize just how small the movement is that tears steel out of that hardened frizzen, and leaves them stuck in the flint edge. If it were easy to see, everyone would have seen it, and we would not behaving this diagreement.
So you don't acribe any mystical powers to me, let me assure you that I did not see the " bounce" either, and wasn't looking for it, until my late friend, Don Latter, who grew up fiddling with flintlocks and taught himself how to tune locks before I came into the picture, showed it to me. Even then, the better visible evidence was the before and after examination of the edge of the flint, first wrapped in his old leather wrap, well worn, and dried, and flattened, and then when wrapped in a thin wrap of lead. We used the same flint with both wraps, so that only the wraps were different. We used magnifying lens to examine the edge of the flint, in strong sunlight, just so we would not miss anything.
I had never seen a flint fired a couple of times with a leather wrap- what everyone was using- that did not have metal bits in the edge. Changing to lead was the first time I didn't see metal. We continued to shoot that particular flint, and re-examined it every 5 shots or so, throughout the day. Because the angle of the flint to frizzen was correct, and the flint scraped metal off, while self knapping, we found no bits of metal in the edge after firing an additional 20 rds. Don kept track of that particular flint, and got more than 140 strikes out of it before it was too short to hold in the jaws of his cock.
To explain what was difficult to see, we then experimented with flint and steel kits to see what kind of action was needed to get lots of sparks that were white hot in color. Then we asked how could the same flint cut different color sparks when the only thing changed was the flint wrap?
Don figured it out one after noon, when someone gave him some scraps of tanned leather, that was fairly thick. For the heck of it, he cut a small strip, and used it to make a new leather wrap for his flint. When he put it in the jaws, and tightened down, the few sparks that were created were barely orange, and died as soon as they struck the pan- no bouncing sparks off the pan. That was worse performance than his dried out, old used leather wrap, so he put that leather wrap back on the flint, and the flint threw more sparks, orange, but at least they were hot enough to bounce off the pan. He got excited, and tried raw hide, some Parfletch scraps he had, tanned leather again, of different thicknesses, from several different animal sources. The thicker the leather wraps were, the few and colder the sparks they threw. But nothing threw three the shower of white hot sparks, that bounced twice in the pan before burning out, that the lead wrap produced. And, the bits of steel left in the flint edge were proportionate bigger in relation to the thickness of the leather used as a wrap.
The only way to explain what we were able to see, is what we eventually did see in a still photo taken with the aperature left open long enough to record the full movement of the cock, and the life of the sparks. It became very clear that what we saw with our eyes was real- fewer sparks, orange to dull orange in color using leather; a shower of sparks white in color using lead. And, using a manifying glass, you could see the slight blur of the edge as it rebounds off the frizzen. I am sure that this occurs in millionths of a second, so only very expensive time-lapse photography equipment would be able to catch it on film, and slow it down so we can see it. I don't have access to that kind of equipment.
DrTimboone
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Looks like we have a new experiment for Pletch to do next time he has access to the high speed video camera. :v With leather then with lead to see if anything changes visually. At the speed this was taken I would think you would be able to see if there is a bounce or not. and they can be studied frame by frame as well. :hmm:
Mike Brooks
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I've watched this video several times, there is no bounce. I've shot leather wrapped flints for 27 years and have yet to find any of my flints clogged with steel. Any lock that has trouble with flint wear has nothing to do with what the flint is wrapped in, it's bad geometry that is the culprit. The other cause is abrasion from hot gasses from the vent vent hole. If your flint edge is lined up with the hole, the hot gasses from the expolsion with take the edge right off of your flint. I have locks that will get as many as 140 shots per flint wrapped in leather.
The most interesting thing in this video is the frizzen spring movement after the frizzen shoe hits it. It's the bottom leaf that's flexing, not the top. Pretty surprising. :hmm:
The most interesting thing in this video is the frizzen spring movement after the frizzen shoe hits it. It's the bottom leaf that's flexing, not the top. Pretty surprising. :hmm:
burgessrudy
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Time to add my two cents. I have changed from leather to lead on my Brown Bess. I do re-enacting and I was told before my first re-enactment that it's better to use lead because the leather might singe or catch on fire. I thought the guy was exagerating.
I fired about 26 shots in a short period of time and not only did the barrel become too hot to touch, the leather jaw pad was singed. Of course most people don't shoot that many times in a short period of time and expose the leather to the constant heat and flame of the priming pan ignition. Lead is harder to keep tight in the jaws, so there is a trade off.
I fired about 26 shots in a short period of time and not only did the barrel become too hot to touch, the leather jaw pad was singed. Of course most people don't shoot that many times in a short period of time and expose the leather to the constant heat and flame of the priming pan ignition. Lead is harder to keep tight in the jaws, so there is a trade off.
You just discovered why the British and French military used lead wraps for their soldiers. The French used a wrap shaped like a capital "H" with bars across the bottom & top as well as thru the center. The center piece also extended out far enough to wrap around the sides of the flint for extra security. Kind of an interesting twist.
I think different locks act different ways, mine has nothing to hold the leather so the flint comes out EVERY time I shoot, with thin lead I tighten twice for 20 -25 shots. Fred :hatsoff: (and Im going to use what works for me, so Id tell everyone try Very thin lead if they have the problem I did, Ive used "duck tape and it works great too! :rotf:
Definitely musy be something different for sure...by contrast, I shoot a 50 shot range sessions every Saturday from the same shooting table, powder charges are all premeasured in 35mm film canisters, so reloading is very simple and fast, shooting each shot in about a minute since the last one, barrel almost always gets too hot to hold...never had a leather flint wrap catch on fire, and never had a flint come loose during a range session.
:hmm:
:hmm:
cowpoke1955
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My GPR came with a leather wrap. I could see the skip marks on the frizzen, indicating a bouncing flint. I switched to a lead wrap and now I get smooth, even scrapes on the frizzen. Now on Blue Ridge I use a buck skin wrap and it works perfectly with no bounce. I just use what works for each lock.
I've heard of a bouncing frizzen...even saw a slow motion video where a frizzen didn't have a cam-over type tail, it just tilted back onto the spring and the spring bounced it back into the flint/jaws...but what do you mean by a bouncing flint?cowpoke1955 said:
cowpoke1955
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Some of the guys here said that leather acts like a shock absorber. The leather will strech under the stress of the flint hitting the frizzen. On my GPR, it would leave a chatter cut down the face of the frizzen. I don't think the problem was the frizzen or frizzen spring. After I switched to a lead wrap I got a nice smooth and even scrape. On my Blue Ridge, both lead and leather wraps work equally well. I just use what works in each lock.
Think part of my problem is this is the first flintlock Ive ever shot a CVA Pa Deerhunter? Limited Edition with Deer on the side, may of been a throw together, for the heck of it I tryed 2f and it went right off with the lead wrap, this thing has nothing to hold the leather or the jaws are wrong? But hey these nice people Ive got stuff from for years set it for free so I could try flintlocks before I kick off so Im not bitchen at all, cant hit a thing...yet :rotf: Fred :hatsoff:
paulvallandigham
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Mule Skinner. The answer is " NO". I have been using lead to wrap my flints for more than 15 years, using a cochran lock, without any troubles. The gun makers I have talked to about this all report that the only cocks that they have seen that broke were off of older guns, where the metal used is either iron, or of questional origin. They all report that you could see the void( air bubble of foreign slag in the metal when cast) or could se where the metal was crystallized from improper heat treating. ( basically the cock was hardened, but not tempered.)
Others will tell you all kinds of boogey man tales, but if you ask them to show you the offending cock, they don't have it for your inspection any more, or they can't remember who told them that it broke because lead was used to wrap the flints. I have been chasing this idea from the very first time A friend showed me how much better sparks I got from a flint wrapped in lead, and pursue every story and rumor, as far as I can.
My brother bought an old gun that was badly damaged, including the percusson hammer was broken at the neck. There was much damage to the stock, showing rough handling. The old, original hammer, dating from the 1870s, appeared to be cast iron, and not cast steel. That represents the only broken hammer or cock I have been able to examine personally, and it only took a magnifying glass to clearly see how the metal stretched or bent, before it gave way. Someone struck a tree, or steel post, or used a sledge hammer on that hammer to break it.
I hope that helps you.
Others will tell you all kinds of boogey man tales, but if you ask them to show you the offending cock, they don't have it for your inspection any more, or they can't remember who told them that it broke because lead was used to wrap the flints. I have been chasing this idea from the very first time A friend showed me how much better sparks I got from a flint wrapped in lead, and pursue every story and rumor, as far as I can.
My brother bought an old gun that was badly damaged, including the percusson hammer was broken at the neck. There was much damage to the stock, showing rough handling. The old, original hammer, dating from the 1870s, appeared to be cast iron, and not cast steel. That represents the only broken hammer or cock I have been able to examine personally, and it only took a magnifying glass to clearly see how the metal stretched or bent, before it gave way. Someone struck a tree, or steel post, or used a sledge hammer on that hammer to break it.
I hope that helps you.
Guest
Mule Skinner said:
No
I had previously not tried lead, but after reading this and several other "discussions", I decided to try it. I got it all set up and tried it in the house. I pulled the trigger and damn near set my carpet on fire. Really--- a real hot spark bounced out of the pan and into the carpet. I looked real good to be sure it was not smoldering. Convinced me.
No I have not had any trouble with leather, but if this helps eliminates that "one" bad sparking, it will be worth it. Perfection is in the little details. :thumbsup:
No I have not had any trouble with leather, but if this helps eliminates that "one" bad sparking, it will be worth it. Perfection is in the little details. :thumbsup:
