Leather or lead for flint

[Rifleman1776]

perhaps molds were issued to cast the flint wraps as well? Sounds like an interesting thing to research.....

The very large "teeth" on the Cock and Top jaw of Brown Bess Muskets, were no doubt for use with Leaden Flint Wraps to help secure them.

The only (fairly) successful use I have had with lead wraps was in my Ped. repro BB. I read somewhere soldiers in the AWI, of both sides, often had to flatten musket balls to get the wrap. So, of course, I had to try it. But, even in the honkin' big jaws of a BB lock the flints still worked loose rather quickly. Might be 'pc' but not practical. :shake:

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I've always had very good success with lead wraps in muskets, although the proper wraps work better than DIY ones made from a musket ball. Be it Pedersoli Bess, Jap Charleville, Jap Bess, or India origin Bess..., otherwise, leather in the jaws....which I think I've replied with this earlier...alas gettin' old....

LD

 

[Artificer]

I have never seen (happy to be corrected) any reference to military issues or stores of leather for flints.

In "Small Arms of the British Forces 1664-1815," Bailey mentions on page 269.....

"Although frequently mentioned in earlier parts of this chapter, a consolidated list of the items used by the Soldier to maintain and preserve his musket may not come amiss. Since all items which follow were not supplied by the Ordnance [Department] but at regimental level by either the Colonel or Company Officers, not every soldier would have all of these items at any one time."

in that list is the following:

"and spare flint leathers or lead sheet to fix the flint in the jaws of the cock."

OK, since British Ordnance did not provide these things, it seems it was up to each Regimental Commanding Officer and/or possibly Company Commanding Officers to provide either type of "flint wraps" or "Top Jaw Pads" to their soldiers. Bailey does not mention how he documented either type of "Flint Wrap," though.

You know, it may be as simple as the sheet lead was cheaper than leather for the flint wraps in the period, because good leather was pretty expensive?

Gus

 

[RAEDWALD]

You know, it may be as simple as the sheet lead was cheaper than leather for the flint wraps in the period, because good leather was pretty expensive

Given the reluctance of Colonel's to spend on anything not showy and to take the profits from Regimental underspending as perquisites I suspect that Ordnance issue (ie free to Regiments) balls or spent balls hammered flat would be their choice to keep up their income. Or perhaps I am too cynical Gus.

 

[RAEDWALD]

However, somehow the secret of making the French style flints got out because British Ordnance purchased 200,000 of the then "New" shaped flints in 1775 from English Flint knappers, that were the same shape as the French had been making for decades by that time. British Ordnance purchased 500,000 the next year and into the millions each year thereafter during the AWI. This according to Bailey.

Gus

Gus the Norfolk and Kentish flint knappers told of a French POW who taught them how to knap the 'French' flints. The same tale is still told in Meusnes where I get my flints.

Actually (OT) for spall flints I trawl the local fields around there where they make 'flint wines' as the vineyards are covered in flint residue chippings as a mulch. Wander about and spall shaped flints are just lying around. The cover story for the Memsahib is that I am taking her to Ikea in Tours as a treat......

 

[Cowboy]

Tried both.

Leather

Respectfully, Cowboy 👍

 

[Artificer]

You know, it may be as simple as the sheet lead was cheaper than leather for the flint wraps in the period, because good leather was pretty expensive

Given the reluctance of Colonel's to spend on anything not showy and to take the profits from Regimental underspending as perquisites I suspect that Ordnance issue (ie free to Regiments) balls or spent balls hammered flat would be their choice to keep up their income. Or perhaps I am too cynical Gus.

I don't believe you are being cynical as there is ample evidence, especially in peace time between the wars of the 18th century, where Regimental CO's did such things to pocket the extra money and/or spent more on the "showy" items and spent less on items that were not showy.

Additionally, British Ordnance also at times went "surprisingly cheap" on some items, even as it seemed important to them to provide quality arms that cost more than some of the "cheap junk" purchased by some Regimental CO's that led to British Ordnance being set up to take over Arms production and issue.

I have no documentation to support this, other than the aforementioned well documented times that British Ordnance "went cheap at times," but I would bet British Ordnance did not normally issue lead balls, unless they were in complete cartridges. Casting lead into balls would cost more money than issuing lead in other forms and I would think British Ordnance figured that was labor that could be done by the Soldiers in the Regiments, without the additional cost to British Ordnance. So it is my supposition they issued most lead to the Regiments in forms other than already cast balls, especially considering as how they provided molds to the Regiments to cast balls.

Also and even considering the tools and equipment supplied to the Regiments for the Regimental Artificers, I am not so sure hammering balls flat was how they came up with the lead "flint wraps." Without documentation to support this, it would see to me that when they were heating lead to cast into balls, it would have been a simple thing to drizzle some molten lead onto flat iron surfaces or into handmade wood/soapstone molds or even onto rocks - to get thinner lead for the flint wraps, even if they had to further flatten some of it with hammers after the molten lead cooled?

Gus

 

[Artificer]

However, somehow the secret of making the French style flints got out because British Ordnance purchased 200,000 of the then "New" shaped flints in 1775 from English Flint knappers, that were the same shape as the French had been making for decades by that time. British Ordnance purchased 500,000 the next year and into the millions each year thereafter during the AWI. This according to Bailey.

Gus

Gus the Norfolk and Kentish flint knappers told of a French POW who taught them how to knap the 'French' flints. The same tale is still told in Meusnes where I get my flints.

Actually (OT) for spall flints I trawl the local fields around there where they make 'flint wines' as the vineyards are covered in flint residue chippings as a mulch. Wander about and spall shaped flints are just lying around. The cover story for the Memsahib is that I am taking her to Ikea in Tours as a treat......

That is VERY interesting information, indeed. Thank you.

T.M. Hamilton mentioned the same thing in his 1980 book, "Colonial Frontier Guns;" but he mentioned the date as around 1780 during the AWI.

However, Bailey mentions these flints being first supplied to British Ordnance in 1775, before the French joined into the war.

Of course, these may have been two separate events where the British learned to knap the French Flints, from French knappers.

Gus

 

[George]

Also and even considering the tools and equipment supplied to the Regiments for the Regimental Artificers, I am not so sure hammering balls flat was how they came up with the lead "flint wraps."

Cuthbertson didn't say anything about where/how to get the lead, he just said it should be used.

Cuthbertson, Bennett, Esq. A System for the Complete Interior Management and Oeconomy of a Battalion of Infantry, The Second Edition. London: J. Millan, 1779.

"The flints should always be screwed in firm, between a thin piece of lead, it having a more certain hold, than leather, or any other contrivance: besides a good one in his piece, a Soldier ought to have another in his pouch, and a small bit of wood, shaped like a flint, to use at exercise, in practicing the firing motions, as the frequent striking up the hammers, must unavoidably break and spoil flints, without answering any useful end."

Spence

 

[Artificer]

Good documentation, Spence.

Since Cuthbertson says the flints should be affixed with lead rather than leather, it must mean some British Soldiers had used leather wraps.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

P.S. My circa early 2,000's Pedersoli Bess does not have the huge teeth found in the original Brown Bess Cock/Top Jaws.

Since we fire so many more blank rounds at a reenactment compared to what they fired in an original battle, that means we expect our flints to work for many more shots without knapping the edge or readjusting the flint or tightening the Cock/Top Jaw Screw.

For my musket, I found wet forming leather pads around the flints gave me the best results for sure sparking, no matter how many times I fired blanks at a reenactment and usually a good deal more times than others using lead wraps.

Gus

 

[RAEDWALD]

Mitchell, p. 38, alleges that the French mode was introduced into England by James Woodyer, of Kingsdown between London and Maidstone, who died c. 1780”“90. Probably French methods reached Brandon some time after their use in Kent. Skertchly’s legend is that the flaking-hammer was introduced from France, probably during the war of the Spanish Succession [1701-1714] by a prisoner called Péro. By 1927, the version had it that the name of the incarcerated knapper was Freuer who, at the conclusion of hostilities returned to Brandon, married, and founded the family of knappers, the Frewers. (Rogerson, Blackwood’s Magazine, April 1927, p.528).

Given the ability of the English peasantry to mangle any other (and their own) language the names differ but are consistent mispronunciations, especially with an East Anglian accent. This was to Kent where Chiselhurst caves were both chalk and flint mines. Later passed on to Brandon in Norfolk where the principal trade grew as Kentish gun flints production dropped. I find the story to be plausible and consistent. The Frewer family is still around in Norfolk.

 

[Artificer]

Mitchell, p. 38, alleges that the French mode was introduced into England by James Woodyer, of Kingsdown between London and Maidstone, who died c. 1780”“90. Probably French methods reached Brandon some time after their use in Kent. Skertchly’s legend is that the flaking-hammer was introduced from France, probably during the war of the Spanish Succession [1701-1714] by a prisoner called Péro. By 1927, the version had it that the name of the incarcerated knapper was Freuer who, at the conclusion of hostilities returned to Brandon, married, and founded the family of knappers, the Frewers. (Rogerson, Blackwood’s Magazine, April 1927, p.528).

Given the ability of the English peasantry to mangle any other (and their own) language the names differ but are consistent mispronunciations, especially with an East Anglian accent. This was to Kent where Chiselhurst caves were both chalk and flint mines. Later passed on to Brandon in Norfolk where the principal trade grew as Kentish gun flints production dropped. I find the story to be plausible and consistent. The Frewer family is still around in Norfolk.

Now that is very interesting! :thumbsup:

I imagine that Péro kept the trade secret of making French Style flints in his own family, then?

Is there any information on approximately when Péro's production would have risen enough for export?

Funny that French Style flints were being made that early in England and did not reach the British Ordnance Board until 1775? I wonder would it have been that their production rate was not great enough earlier than that?

Gus