Lee Minie Balls

[Melnic]

Who here has any experience with Minie balls?
Specifically from a Lee Mold.

I have casted Lee Minie balls with this mold:
https://leeprecision.com/mold-578-478-m.html

I have a sizer die to size it to 2 of my Guns I have tried to shoot them out of .576 and .578

The are doing horribly. I mean like 2ft apart, most off paper.
I'm using 60gr Goex FFG.

When I shoot a Minie purchased from TOW, things are much better.

My first thought is that the Skirt on the LEE bullets look thicker.

 

[waarp8nt]

Are the bases filling out fully? Voids, lines and rounded edges on the bases of bullets can cause issues.

What rifle and rate of twist are you using?

I have not used that particular Lee mold. I have used Lee R.E.A.L with decent accuracy under 100 yards. Most of my molds are Lyman with a few Ohaus and RCBS.

 

[Badgerfarm]

This might be a stupid question but are you using pure lead? Have you recovered any of the fired minnies? The skirts might not be filling out if the lead is too hard or the skirt could be blowing out too. 60 grains is a pretty stiff load if you are shooting a rifled musket. Try backing down to 42-45 grains with a good lube and see what if anything it does better or worse. Sometimes certain guns just don't like anything that that you feed them. What rifle are you using it in and the twist rate, depth of rifling, type of lube, etc? The Lee molds are sort of hit and miss...sometimes you get a good one and other times they are lemons. I've had both but when they are part of an accurate combo they can be very good too. I've nearly pulled my hair out in the past trying to figure them out. I had a Zoli Zouave many years ago that loved them with 42 grains of 3F behind them and a light coat of beeswax, and Crisco for lube. Tell us as much as you can and we'll try to help.

 

[BrownBear]

My first thought is that the Skirt on the LEE bullets look thicker.

I have a fair bit of experience over the last decade or so with that mold and minie, and I suspect you nailed it right there. My intention for it has been a hunting load, the thicker skirt allowing me to punch up the velocity while the large meplat allows for greater terminal performance. It's been admirable in both those categories.

But starting with that frame of mind I've never even tried it with such a light load. I started at 80 grains of 2f, moved up to 100 grains, then backed down to 80 to keep the fillings in my teeth. I saw no improvement in accuracy going from 80 to 100, and I didn't need it. It's been a tack driver with 80 grains in 3 different 58's. I wouldn't be doing long strings of target shooting with that 80 grain charge, but in fact I bet you can improve your results a lot with more powder.

 

[Badgerfarm]

Yes, the light loads are more of a skirmish target load and are useful to get on paper at 50 yards. WOW, I'll bet 80 to 100 grains are a hammer for a hunting load. Is it possible that the OP has lead fouling in his rifling? It doesn't take much to foul out the shallow grooves on some of the rifled muskets if that's what he is shooting. More info would be very helpful for trouble shooting his problem.

BrownBear, what rifles are you shooting? Have you seen the mold that they call a stake buster? It's basically a wadcutter design with minnie grooves and a hollow base. Shiloh used to make a mold with the same design but with a ringtail or a flat base for their Sharps percussion rifles.

 

[BrownBear]

BrownBear, what rifles are you shooting? Have you seen the mold that they call a stake buster? It's basically a wadcutter design with minnie grooves and a hollow base. Shiloh used to make a mold with the same design but with a ringtail or a flat base for their Sharps percussion rifles.

I've tried them in all my 58's but one, though they're getting used mostly in a couple of TC Big Boars, a custom barrel TC Hawken and a GM drop-in barrel that migrates between stocks as it sees fit. It wasn't a happy mix with my GRRW Hawken and its tapered or "choked" bore. My old Investarms with its thin 15/16" barrel has never got to taste them because I just don't trust it with heavier loads. By the time dovetails are cut, the steel is getting pretty thin.

I haven't bothered with the Stakebuster. I don't see any need with that great LEE mold and the fireplugs that come out of it.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

You might also want to mike-the-bore and see if you've an odd set of dimensions, and compare that and mike the bullets. When I used them as a kid..., we cast them and shot them...never swaged them in a sizing die. They shot really well, so maybe try them cooled, right from the mold ???

LD

 

[Badgerfarm]

Thanks BrownBear, I understand the heavier loads now. It would take that to get the hollow base to engage the deeper rifling but it is effective. At some point the stake buster is just overkill somewhat like launching a trashcan at a target. Most of the guys call them trashcans since they look like one. I had good luck with a Lee .54 minnie in a Lyman GPR back when I could still hold the rifle up. It seems like it preferred from 75 to 80 grains to get the accuracy from it too. I'm patched together with plates and rods from my neck to my pelvis and can't take any recoil at all these days but I still enjoy reading the forums and remembering the old days.

 

[Melnic]

Traditions Enfield 1853 Kit (Chiappa/ArmiSport).
Not sure the twist rate
I slugged the barrel at .578 (inserted over sized minie, then twisted and pulled out).
https://www.chiappafirearms.com/p/id/235/product/1853-Enfield-Musket.php

Pure lead from known good local source (using lee hardness tester measures 5bhn)
They are filling out well. I've sorted the bullets to within 2 grains of each other by weight.

Shooting at club range so I can't recover the bullets.

 

[dave951]

Saw your post over at the NSSA board. The Lee Improved minie does not shoot well in any of my guns- 62 Colt Contract, PH 1st gen, PH musketoon, 62 Colt Sig Series. Not with any level powder charge nor with any lube that I currently use with great success on other minies. Another thought, I've seen some Armisports that won't shoot well regardless of what you do. Hopefully you don't have one of those. Examine the bedding/inletting to determine if the tang screw isn't torquing the barrel.

A couple comments here on accuracy with minies-

1) Large powder charges are NOT needed and in fact, may hinder accuracy. Minies aren't designed to shoot in deep cut rifling so you're wasting your time in guns that weren't designed from the start to shoot minies. A charge level of about 60-70% of the service charge of 60gr will nearly always yield best accuracy if the minie is suited to the gun/rifling.

2) The ONLY minie design from Lee that I've found to shoot well is their copy of the Rapine Trashcan. It looks like a gigantic wadcutter and it shoots as well as the Rapine when sized to the musket.

3) Experiment with other powders. 2f isn't the only thing you can shoot in a musket. In fact, my 3 band Colt really likes the RCBS 580213 with Lens Lube and 35g 3f Old Eynsford. All three of my 2 bands shoot better with 42g of the same powder and the Rapine Trashcan. Don't know why this is, but it is completely verifiable. Of the powder available, Swiss is best followed closely by Old Eynsford (Goex product). Testing will tell what works best for you but I don't know of any successful serious competitors who use anything else.

4) LUBE. Ask 5 NSSA members what's best, get 10 answers. Experiment. I've found the optimum lube varies with the gun in question. My PHs like the RCBS Hogdon with tall base plug lubed with 50/50 beeswax/lard. I tried Crisco in the mix, but it can't touch the lard mix, that was confirmed in a head to head test. The Colts don't shoot that minie well with any lube I've tried- yet. My 63 Sharps will cut one ragged hole at 50yd with the lard mix but nothing else so far tried will equal it.

 

[Melnic]

Question, what is a "tall base plug"? What base plug comes with the mold?
Not sure where to get different base plugs.

I have an RCBS580213 on order.

How critical is the lube ? I am using 100% crisco right now hand applied at the range. (it was cold past few days still but warming up). I was under the impression that lube would not matter a big deal until I hone in the bullet groups down to get down to say several inches @ 50 yards. I was hand applying the crisco with TOW purchased 580213 minies and I was almost touching holes at 50 yards.

 

[dave951]

How critical is the lube ?.

Very. I tested Crisco head to head with Lard and Lard won hands down in every test. In my Parker Hales (yes, I have two), the difference is Crisco- 1.5-2in group at 50, Lard- one ragged hole. Same thing with both my 63 Sharps. Crisco shoots about 1-2in larger groups at 50, lard is one ragged hole. However, in my Colts, the Rapine trashcan shoots best with Lens Lube. Don't know what's in it but it's available at our Nationals from a sutler. I'm experimenting looking for something that will yield the same accuracy. Don't be afraid to experiment. What started my taking a skeptical look at Crisco was a thread on a black powder round ball sub forum I was looking through for powder info. I found an old thread in an archive that mentioned the decline in accuracy when Crisco switched the formula to cut down on blood mud in people. While the change may have health benefits, it did not benefit accuracy according to that thread, so I decided to put it to the test and the results were obvious and repeatable. No more Crisco for my Parkers and Sharps.

Question, what is a "tall base plug"?

The RCBS Hogdon comes with a base plug that results in a thick skirt. Northeast Trader on the NSSA links page sells a base plug for the mold that leaves a thinner skirt allowing a lower powder charge and greater accuracy. Again, repeatable and true.

I have an RCBS580213 on order.

I am working up loads for a 3 band Colt and this bullet shoots rather well so far. With issue sights, it'll put 5 shots into 2in at 50. I think it can be better with a peep sight allowed by our competition rules instead of the issue sights. When I get around to the sight change, I'll revisit this load. In my 2 bands, I started testing this bullet. So far, it likes powder charges in the mid 30gr range but nothing equals the Trashcan at the moment out of the Colts. In my Parker Hales, nothing, and I mean nothing I have molds for can touch the Hogdons with beeswax/lard. The only thing even remotely close is the Lee version of the Trashcan and it's no longer available so you'll have to find used or NewOldStock.

 

[dave951]

One more critical thing- powder. Not all black is the same. I was investigating the differences in the various offerings and one thing I found consistently, in the winners circle, the powder was very, very often Swiss followed by Old Eynsford.

I found a thread in a BPCR forum where the OP had tested the powders against each other for velocity consistency and for the amount of deviation. Swiss was hands down best. Following very closely by only a couple percentage points was Old Eynsford. Red can Goex and Schutzen were way behind in velocity consistency and fouling. Of course, if you're just plinking, price on powder can be a factor. Swiss ain't cheap, neither is Old Eynsford but if you're competing, these powders can make a difference between winning and just participating. If I was shooting cartridge guns at 1k yds, it'd be Swiss without question. In NSSA competition, we shoot at 100yds max so the difference between Swiss and OE isn't enough to matter. Swiss burns cleanest followed by OE.

I read another thread about the consistency of the grains of each powder. Swiss was very consistent in grain size followed closely by OE. In the others, the grains varied fairly widely. The test methodology involved sieving the powder and looking at what was removed by serveral mesh sizes. The amount of grain variation was almost directly related to the price of the powder. You pretty much do get what you're paying for.

 

[hawkeye2]

What dave951 said is gospel, not much to ad. Some friends shoot the Lee trashcan and swear by it, I have no experience with it. I do have a Lee 578-478-M mold that has been shortened 1/16" on the nose end and I was going to make a new base plug for it but the only lathe I had access to had a chuck that was in such bad shape I gave up and have never gotten back to it. Another lube that is quite popular with skirmishers is MCM and is avaliable here; https://www.northeasttradeco.com/online-store/OLD-TRAPPERS-PRODUCTS-c20288064 A friend gave me some to try which I haven't done yet so I can't give my opinion of it but it is held in high regard. Since Crisco changed its formula many years ago it has no place in the blackpowder shooting world but that's just my opinion and probable worth only 2 cents Confederate.

 

[BrownBear]

Mine has responded best to rendered deer tallow. It needs a little stiffening with beeswax in warmer weather, though.

One thing omitted in my original post- I'm shooting 3f, and yes, 80 grains of it. It performs enough better than 2f that I'm guessing it reliably upsets that thick skirt while the 2f doesn't. As I said, it's a hunting load and not something I'd shoot long for range play.

 

[TFoley]

I shoot the Lyman-made Minié bullet as cast in my Musketoon over 45gr of Swiss #2. My lube is a 50/50 mix of beeswax and neat's foot oil. Needless to say here in UK we do not have such cold or hot as you do in CONUS, so it's a year-round thing. Ten shot groups hover around 2.5in if I rest, and a deal more if I don't. It's main use is for guests to the range to try out a REAL gun.

 

[Melnic]

thx all.
I have the mold insert and lube ordered this morning from Northeast.
I will note that when I shot the thin skirted .580 minie with tight groups this week with crisco, it was only about 45F outside.
I came back wed evening and shot the same stuff and it was 70F. Groups opened up to almost double.

HOWEVER, I just examined both boxes of .580 minies from tow. One box the skirts were thick, the other box they were thin.
The thicker ones start at 70-80 and the thinner ones are 50-60 Weird though, the thinner skirt has the deeper hollow.
I'll be eager to get my mold components so I can get some darn consistancy.

I'm hopefully going to take a day trip to the Nationals mid may. Looking for a Maynard Carbine and I'll be able to pick up some better powder

 

[dave951]

From what I've seen, unless you're getting your minies from the CW Bulletman through Lodgewood, the QC can be spotty. It looks like a case of guys who don't shoot minies just decided to add them to their product line without really knowing what makes a quality minie. Lead hardness can vary as can diameter. With CW Bulletman, you are assured to get a bullet within a tolerance range and from pure lead. I buy from him from time to time for different designs to test before springing for an expensive mold that may or may not produce a bullet I can use.

I've tried MCM lube, but so far, the results haven't been promising. Some folks swear by it, but not me at this time. No minie I've tried it with, nor Smith or Sharps bullet have yielded really great results. Not to say I'll not use it, just that so far, none of my guns respond to it.

I'm hopefully going to take a day trip to the Nationals mid may.

While you're there, spend time with Lodgewood, Northeast, Rebel Trading post, S&S and the other vendors who make or carry stuff to specialize in shooting Civil War guns. They're all glad to help and their advice is good. Check out Larry Romano's guns, they are works of art.

 

[dave951]

A comment on the Lee trashcan. I bought a used mold for this bullet (and a couple others) off a junk table at Nationals for $5. For that price, I can afford to take some chances. Of the three molds I got off the table, only the Lee trashcan (target minie) shoots well in any of my guns with any lube I've tried so far. In fact, it shot so well out of my PHs, I tracked down and bought a spare on Ebay that was NewOldStock since Lee has discontinued it. So now I have two bullets that will shoot really, really well from the PHs, but the Hogdon is still the go to for ultimate accuracy. Out of my 2band and musketoon, the hogdon is a sub 2moa load with iron sights and my old tired eyes.

 

[Melnic]

dave951, I wonder what the difference is in the trashcan? Are you able to measure the thickness of the skirt at the bottom and also the depth of the hallow?