Lee REAL 320 grain Load data question

[yellowsevenpot]

Hello everyone,

I am in the process of assembling my second muzzle loader, and my first .50 cal. It is a Traditions Hawkins.

Does anyone have any experience using a REAL from a Traditions Hawkins?

I am nearly finished and am starting to think about casting. I was given a Lee .50 320 grain REAL / round ball combo mold. With this mold came a load data sheet. For 2f black powder it list 20 to 100 grains. However, for Pyrodex RS it list from 20 to 6o. Why is the max for the RS so low? From the Hogdgon website there is a PDF that lists load data for a similar weight bullet that is listed at 80 and 100 grains... Any and all insight is appreciated.

Also, does anyone have any experience casting / using REAL bullets cast from WW lead? I do not have any pure on hand, will these be a bear to load / not seal the bore?

Also, is leading a thing with non-patched conicals? I have only shot round balls until now.

Thank you all in advance!

 

[Rifleman1776]

The only experience I have had with the REAL in a rifle was not satisfactory at all. It was in a TC 'not-really-a-hawken-hawken', .45 cal. The loaded bullet slid up the bore when carrying on a hunt. They do that in most rifles. With your larger caliber, I cannot imagine why you would want one. But 'want' is a personal thing. Yer choice. Accurate range is less than with a prb due to the rainbow trajectory. What do you have in Washington state that you believe requires so much more to kill them?

 

[Maven]

y7p, No experience with a Traditions .50cal. Hawken & REAL's, but have used them in a .4cal. T/C Hawken (very accurate) and a .50cal. unmentionable rifle (only so-so accuracy). As for a starting load, you can try 60gr. FFg or 60gr. Pyrodex RS (both by volume). As for WW v. "pure" Pb, the latter is what I have always used with conicals. However, since my REAL mould cast too small for my unmentionable rifle's bore, I think I might have been better off using WW, as it would have cast a trifle larger. (I wound up paper patching that pure Pb REAL, which improved accuracy, but not enough to suit me.) In short, a REAL cast of WW's may be too hard to seat v. one cast from Pb. I'm sure conicals can lead the bore, but since they are lubed (by hand?) beforehand, the odds or leading are low.

Btw, the 20- 60gr. Pyrodex RS recommendation may be a misprint, as I've used 80gr. with no pressure signs at all in that rifle-which-can't be named on this Forum.

 

[Idaho Ron]

Hello everyone,

I am in the process of assembling my second muzzle loader, and my first .50 cal. It is a Traditions Hawkins.

Does anyone have any experience using a REAL from a Traditions Hawkins?

I am nearly finished and am starting to think about casting. I was given a Lee .50 320 grain REAL / round ball combo mold. With this mold came a load data sheet. For 2f black powder it list 20 to 100 grains. However, for Pyrodex RS it list from 20 to 6o. Why is the max for the RS so low? From the Hogdgon website there is a PDF that lists load data for a similar weight bullet that is listed at 80 and 100 grains... Any and all insight is appreciated.

Also, does anyone have any experience casting / using REAL bullets cast from WW lead? I do not have any pure on hand, will these be a bear to load / not seal the bore?

Also, is leading a thing with non-patched conicals? I have only shot round balls until now.

Thank you all in advance!

I have a fair amount of data on the REAL 50 cal 320 gr. After Hornady quit making the 410 gr I went to work finding something that would replace it. I found no confidence in PRB and those didn't and won't cross my mind. I can't blame you for wanting something that "HITS" with authority.
The Lee REAL will need to be cast as pure as you can. I have tested them with WW lead and they were super hard to get down. The second and third were horrible.
Here are 50 yard targets.

Here is pretty much a typical 100 yard

The REAL bullets were solid sub 4" groups at 100 yards sometimes a lot better. I was looking for a bit more accuracy and went on to paper patch the Lee 500 S&W bullet. For a gun that has a slow twist the REAL bullet is a good bullet in my opinion. Far better than a PRB.

 

[browndog]

I tried ww maxiballs in my deerstalker 54 cal stainless. It was real hard to ram the bullet down the barrel. Soft lead out of the same mold rammed much easier
Regards browndog

 

[Grenadier1758]

Hello everyone,

I am in the process of assembling my second muzzle loader, and my first .50 cal. It is a Traditions Hawkins.

Does anyone have any experience using a REAL from a Traditions Hawkins?

The answers to your questions will have to come from your rifle. For a bullet such as the Lee REAL, Rifling Engraved at Loading, the bullet has to be larger in diameter than the lands of the rifle. Have you measured your bore and groove diameter? The bullet should be larger than your land to land measurement and slightly less than your groove to groove measurement. This means that wheel weight bullet composition will be hard to load. Use pure lead and a good lubricant around the bullet and leading of the bore shouldn't be an issue. I am of the opinion that a properly fitting patched round ball would be the most effective load. You will have to try your load and let us know how effective it is. Be aware that the heavier bullet will have more felt recoil.

The volume of Pyrodex should be reduced by 10% to 15% compared to black powder for the same effective load. The 40 grain volume reduction seems excessive and it seems to be an actual weight in grains reduction. Always use a volume measure when loading a propellant for a muzzle loading gun.

 

[rodwha]

I purposely went to the Lee REAL as they are engraved into the rifling to hold them on the charge much like seating a ball in a cap n ball cylinder.

Because of the sheer numbers of highly successful hunting forays with a ball I have confidence in it for medium game. I wanted a conical for my .50 cal Deerstalker if ever given the opportunity to hunt something larger. No doubt I'll eventually compare them in effectiveness on medium game too.

I've very limited experience shooting them, but did so using my typical 70 grn 3F charge of Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford that I use with a ball. Through my rifle they did outstanding at 50 yds (nearly touching which prompted me to buy a mold) when I used a felt wad. Without one they keyhole and fly about a foot left and several inches low.

I use Gatofeo's #1 lube on them.

 

[Rifleman1776]

the Lee REAL as they are engraved into the rifling to hold them on the charge

In my part of the country, Arkansas Ozarks, during deer season the early a.m. temps are often about 30 degrees but by noon can warm up to high 70s. Same was true in southern Indiana where I first tried them. With those temp swings different metals (lead and steel) expand at different rates and lubes soften. Even with rifling engraved the REAL slid easily out of the barrel when pointed at the ground. PRB stays put until shot. PRB has higher velocity and flatter trajectory for improved accuracy at a variety of ranges. PRB of pure lead is a proven killer. All my ml deer have been taken with a .45 cal. and moderate real bp loads.

 

[rodwha]

Seems a cap n ball pistol would have even greater problems with projectiles falling loose.

 

[Shifty]

I don't know if this would work in your rifle
but I have been copying some of IdahoRons work,i have a TC-WMC with the bore dia. right on .500 and you know these guns do have shallow rifling so what I did was to make a .492 bullet sizer and use it to resize those 320gen Reals then paper patch with news print, they load easy but stay put on the powder,i shoot 3 times then wipe the bore and th third shot just about as easy to load as the first,figure I would not get over three shots at a game animal anyway,so far I am getting 1 1/2" groups at 50 yds don't know what will happen when I move out to 100yds yet will see some time soon though.I do use a over powder wad.I have a CVA mountain Stalker Barrel 1/32 twist that will shoot about the same with the unmodified bullet and it does have deeper groves and I think the stock Reals would work out OK in a 1/48 twist also just use a over powder wad.

 

[nkbj]

If worried about a REAL sliding around try a thin little strip of light weight fabric on the muzzle to grip the rear band.

If the REAL is small for the barrel it won't be accurate enough to bother with.

 

[curator]

I'm sorry you have had to wade through all the palaver from nay-sayers and inexperienced but opinionated posters. The Lee 320 grain R.E.A.L. bullet is usually a very effective and accurate slug for muzzle loading rifle hunting. It is usually more accurate if loaded on top of a good tight 1/8" wad either hard felt or cardboard. You should work up a load as you would with a round ball. Sometimes the most accurate charge is also the one that kicks the hardest--after all, it IS 320 grains of lead, compared to 180 grains with a PRB. I lube mine with a 50/50 bee's wax-lard lube which seems to work well at just about any temperature. Two or three shots are no problem that requires wiping with this lube, but I only use this when hunting. I prefer heavy loads using FFg (or triple-seven equivalent) when hunting and using REAL slugs. I have never had a deer or large hog run more than a few steps when hit in the vitals with a .50 REAL slug. I have never recovered a REAL slug from any animal I have ever shot (even full-length) I cast mine from 99.5% pure lead and 1/2% tin at 800 degrees to get crisp, sharply filled out castings. I load them with a small rubber mallet in either my 1 in 48 twist T/c Hawken or my CVA Wolf 1 in 28" twist inline. Like anything in the muzzle loading world, you will need to try various loads and find out what works for you.

 

[TNGhost]

curator is right on, ignore the negative Nellies

I have that same mold, it was my first bullet mold of any kind. Used the REAL bullet with good accuracy and effect in a CVA "Hawkin" style rifle, built from a kit my mother bought me on my 18th birthday. It is very similar to your Traditions I imagine.

Lube and charge will be, as others said, what your rifle likes. Mine likes around 80 grs. of FF and will go plum through a deer.

Have fun with it and enjoy :thumbsup:

 

[nkbj]

By the middle of the 19th century some shooters had decided they liked short bullets, some liked medium bullets, some liked long bullets, some liked all of them... and it aint changed since!
:rotf:

 

[mooman76]

Really it's a try and see kind of thing. You already have the mould so why not? Allot of people have had great success and probably just as many have not. I have had good success for the most part with guns 1/48 or faster twist.
I have used lead that was harder than the usual soft lead and it did work. I couldn't say how hard it was because it was a mixture of WWs and range lead so probably some where in the middle of WWs and soft lead. It is harder to get down but once started it went fairly easy. You might want to try a mallet to help get them down or you end up with a soar hand.
I can't tell you why the data is different for Pyrodex vs BP but there should e little to no difference. Could be that's the highest they tried.
If you have some stick on WWs they are very soft, you could try those or try to p/u some soft lead would be my suggestion.

 

[Idaho Ron]

PRB stays put until shot. PRB has higher velocity and flatter trajectory for improved accuracy at a variety of ranges. PRB of pure lead is a proven killer. All my ml deer have been taken with a .45 cal. and moderate real bp loads.

ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff

 

[Zonie]

I sure hate it when I see someone doze off with their mouse on something.

No telling how many times they might enter something. :rotf:

 

[Idaho Ron]

I was stuttering :thumbsup:

 

[Rat Trapper]

I see people who keep posting about bullets moving off the powder. however it has never happened to me with Hornady great plains bullets and I keep checking for it. I think the bore on my Tc Hawken 50 cal must be tight as they load real hard, but they shoot very well and stay put. So it makes me wonder if people are just reposting what they have read or have really had bullets move off the powder???

 

[Shifty]

I have a 50cal GP Hunter and one time while i was hunting with GP Bullets i was constantly checking the bullt with the ram rod because it had been moving off the powder,well just as i had moved through a tangle and emerged into a old logging road i saw a doe at about 40 yds but did not get a shot so i thought better check the bullet ,well guess what it was a good 6" off the powder.These bullets where very accurate off the bench but i could not trust hunting with them anymore,so now after Idaho Rons suggestions i am experimenting with paper patched bullets.I know that all bore are not exactly same dia. some tight some loose .