I agree Spence How is air going to git in a sealed powder chamber to create moisture. Now the bore that is a diff matter it will form moisture so it need to be wiped with a patch with lube.I some times even leave my cap lock capped (gasp)if I had wiped the bore the day before. I only use this when shooting Black powder. The subs go pop.........................bang (maybe). Try it your self you might like it.
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Left it loaded for how long ????
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paulvallandigham
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Like Eterry, I suspect that its a failure to properly clean the oils out of the back end of the barrels that leads so many of the guns to misfire when taken inside and then back out several times to shoot, finally. But, I have seen guns in other people's hands that swear they cleaned and dried the flash channel, that still misfired when they left the gun loaded for several days, taking it in and out of the house. I have also heard Hang-fires occur with other people's guns.
At the time I began hunting with MLers, state law required the guns be UNLOADED- meaning no powder and ball down the barrel for transporting them in any kind of vehicle- and that included any vehicle with a motor. So, I had no choice but to fire off the load at the end of the day. I also had no choice about loading the gun at home- it was illegal, also. So, I loaded my gun at the field.
Transporting the gun in my car from home to field occasionally left me a wet bore, from condensation. It all depended on how cold, and wet it was outside on the morning( night) when I left the house.
So, I began following these old rules. I cleaned and dried my barrel again at the field in the light of the dome light in my car or truck, before loading the powder charge. I liberally greased a cloth patch, and ran that and the ball down onto the powder. I then would used a greased cleaning patch to grease the barrel in front of the PRB. I did the same process with my percussion shotgun, too. If I didn't get a shot, the gun was fired before it was transported in a motorized vehicle, to comply with the law.
Only in the past 12-15 years did the Department change its rules to allow lawful transportation of MLers when they were un-primed- ie, the pan was empty, open with the hammer lowered all the way down, or the percussion cap was removed from the nipple and the hammer lowered onto the nipple. The Guns still had to be encased during transportation- no quick shot out the window- to discourage "road hunting".
I now consider it quite the luxury to be able to carefully load my MLers at HOME, in good light, with warm hands, etc. Doing things "the Old way", wives tales or not, resulted in No hang- fires, and No misfires. Other friends with whom I have hunted, over the years have shaved corners, and have had these problems. I tried to ignore these old rules once- at a postal match held on a very Hot, very humid July Saturday, at a club set down in bottomland, surrounded by tall trees, so that NO wind helped to move the moisture. It was like shooting in a SAUNA. I failed to dry my barrels properly, and paid the price with misfires, and lost birds. It took me half an hour to clear and clean the barrels to get the gun operational again. I made sure to clean AND DRY the barrels well, after each shot- checking the cleaning patches by feel to see how "dry" the drying patches were. When there was a doubt, I used another drying patch down the barrel. It was the one time that I have had to make more than a FEW adjustments to my loading procedures with my shotgun.
I am sure that your experiences and those of others may vary from my own. Its not that unusual. When I give advise here, I assume the worst scenarios, and think of the worst situation I have had loading and shooting my guns, that required multiple modifications in my standard loading practices. Then I write giving that advise.
I should ALWAYS include a cautionary comment, that tells folks that there are NO hard and fast rules- unless you consider it a rule to assume NOTHING. READ YOUR SPENT PATCHES, always. That includes Cleaning patches. They tell what the condition of your bore is in, depending on changes in temperature and humidity. If you don't use a cleaning patch after each shot, you can't know the condition of the barrel, and you are "Loading blind".
I recommend running a cleaning patch down the barrel each morning after the gun has SET outside all night, just to find out what went on it that barrel over night. If the patch comes out wet, chances are that whatever wet the bore has also had that opportunity to dampen the powder, too.
If there is any sound advice, its to be READY to change your loading and cleaning practice if there is a change in what your cleaning and shooting patches tell you. If you don't change, the gun may "hiccup" on you.
When I hunt in below 32 degree F. temperatures, the air is basically dry- or at least the RELATIVE humidity is so low that patches in a cold barrel come out dry. However, as soon as the barrel is shot, the heat from the burning powder heats up the barrel, moisture- even as little moisture that there is in very cold weather-- will Condense on the inside of the barrel. It should condense on the outside, too, but the cold, dry, air surrounding the outside of the barrel whisks the moisture away as fast as it might condense, there.
Thanks for the comment. It gets people thinking. If there is anything people should know about shooting BP Mlers, its that this is a Thinking man's game- not something you can do mindlessly. :hatsoff:
At the time I began hunting with MLers, state law required the guns be UNLOADED- meaning no powder and ball down the barrel for transporting them in any kind of vehicle- and that included any vehicle with a motor. So, I had no choice but to fire off the load at the end of the day. I also had no choice about loading the gun at home- it was illegal, also. So, I loaded my gun at the field.
Transporting the gun in my car from home to field occasionally left me a wet bore, from condensation. It all depended on how cold, and wet it was outside on the morning( night) when I left the house.
So, I began following these old rules. I cleaned and dried my barrel again at the field in the light of the dome light in my car or truck, before loading the powder charge. I liberally greased a cloth patch, and ran that and the ball down onto the powder. I then would used a greased cleaning patch to grease the barrel in front of the PRB. I did the same process with my percussion shotgun, too. If I didn't get a shot, the gun was fired before it was transported in a motorized vehicle, to comply with the law.
Only in the past 12-15 years did the Department change its rules to allow lawful transportation of MLers when they were un-primed- ie, the pan was empty, open with the hammer lowered all the way down, or the percussion cap was removed from the nipple and the hammer lowered onto the nipple. The Guns still had to be encased during transportation- no quick shot out the window- to discourage "road hunting".
I now consider it quite the luxury to be able to carefully load my MLers at HOME, in good light, with warm hands, etc. Doing things "the Old way", wives tales or not, resulted in No hang- fires, and No misfires. Other friends with whom I have hunted, over the years have shaved corners, and have had these problems. I tried to ignore these old rules once- at a postal match held on a very Hot, very humid July Saturday, at a club set down in bottomland, surrounded by tall trees, so that NO wind helped to move the moisture. It was like shooting in a SAUNA. I failed to dry my barrels properly, and paid the price with misfires, and lost birds. It took me half an hour to clear and clean the barrels to get the gun operational again. I made sure to clean AND DRY the barrels well, after each shot- checking the cleaning patches by feel to see how "dry" the drying patches were. When there was a doubt, I used another drying patch down the barrel. It was the one time that I have had to make more than a FEW adjustments to my loading procedures with my shotgun.
I am sure that your experiences and those of others may vary from my own. Its not that unusual. When I give advise here, I assume the worst scenarios, and think of the worst situation I have had loading and shooting my guns, that required multiple modifications in my standard loading practices. Then I write giving that advise.
I should ALWAYS include a cautionary comment, that tells folks that there are NO hard and fast rules- unless you consider it a rule to assume NOTHING. READ YOUR SPENT PATCHES, always. That includes Cleaning patches. They tell what the condition of your bore is in, depending on changes in temperature and humidity. If you don't use a cleaning patch after each shot, you can't know the condition of the barrel, and you are "Loading blind".
I recommend running a cleaning patch down the barrel each morning after the gun has SET outside all night, just to find out what went on it that barrel over night. If the patch comes out wet, chances are that whatever wet the bore has also had that opportunity to dampen the powder, too.
If there is any sound advice, its to be READY to change your loading and cleaning practice if there is a change in what your cleaning and shooting patches tell you. If you don't change, the gun may "hiccup" on you.
When I hunt in below 32 degree F. temperatures, the air is basically dry- or at least the RELATIVE humidity is so low that patches in a cold barrel come out dry. However, as soon as the barrel is shot, the heat from the burning powder heats up the barrel, moisture- even as little moisture that there is in very cold weather-- will Condense on the inside of the barrel. It should condense on the outside, too, but the cold, dry, air surrounding the outside of the barrel whisks the moisture away as fast as it might condense, there.
Thanks for the comment. It gets people thinking. If there is anything people should know about shooting BP Mlers, its that this is a Thinking man's game- not something you can do mindlessly. :hatsoff:
hanshi
Cannon
A gun "sweats" when brought in from the cold and exposed to warmth. The trick is to gradually introduce the rifle to higher temperatures. I put mine in the coolest part of the house and allow it to warm up in stages before exposing it to normal household heat. Never a problem. Taking one from warmth to cold creates no problem.
I left my Pedersoli 12 gauge double loaded with number four buck in the corner. Both barrels went off just fine when I unloaded it after two years. The double was my chicken coop coyote killer when I could get to it in time.
Robert
Robert
CaptainKirk
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Well, not to poke a sleeping bear here, folks, but consider this:
Many of you have left your firearms loaded for months at a time, with evidently no adverse effect or accidental discharge. Great! Maybe you could call your success rate 100% with a say, 5% margin of error. Me, I'd say I have a 100% success rate with perhaps a 1% MOE due to the times I leave it loaded, uncapped, outside, in camp for a day or two. That would give me (worst case scenario) a 4% better chance of not having corrosion, misfire, or accidental discharge. May not sound like much, but I think it's worth something. Gun safety is #1 on my priority list, over convenience, reliability, everything. I won't preach at those of you who do differently; you have a right to think & do as you see fit (This IS still America!)
All I'm saying is, you won't find me driving around with a load in the barrel. :shake:
Many of you have left your firearms loaded for months at a time, with evidently no adverse effect or accidental discharge. Great! Maybe you could call your success rate 100% with a say, 5% margin of error. Me, I'd say I have a 100% success rate with perhaps a 1% MOE due to the times I leave it loaded, uncapped, outside, in camp for a day or two. That would give me (worst case scenario) a 4% better chance of not having corrosion, misfire, or accidental discharge. May not sound like much, but I think it's worth something. Gun safety is #1 on my priority list, over convenience, reliability, everything. I won't preach at those of you who do differently; you have a right to think & do as you see fit (This IS still America!)
All I'm saying is, you won't find me driving around with a load in the barrel. :shake:
Yes, that's the party line and what I was taught as a newbie. Just curious, Capt., and anyone else who accepts this view, how would you go about testing to see if that is true? There are literally dozens of experienced eye witnesses who say they have left their barrels loaded for extended periods of time without damage. What kind of additional evidence would be necessary to change your view? Can it be done?CaptainKirk said:
Spence
CaptainKirk
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Spence, with all due respect;
Having read & enjoyed many, many of your posts, understand I'm speaking from a personal point of view.
1) An unloaded gun never, ever had an accidental discharge. Not once.
2) An unloaded gun never misfired. Fresh powder in the barrel is always better, IMHO. I fully grasp the concept of hunting camp, having done it myself, and leaving the rifle uncapped, but loaded for several days. But not in my car, on the drive home, and not in my garage or closet for several weeks or months. Powder can be weakened/contaminated by grease, oil, moisture, etc. over time.
3) For those who argue self-defense, I offer the following:
a) Get real. "Murdering ***** Savages" don't kick in the door to your cabin anymore. And if your door IS kicked in by modern-day "savages", might I suggest a Remington 870? I truly think you'll fare better.
b) If you insist in defending your humble abode with a muzzleloader, I offer up that you are either living in the past, extremely cheap, or delusional. A good 870 can be purchased for the price of a Colerain barrel.
4) While an empty barrel can and will rust, given the right conditions, It's my (personal) opinion that a loaded barrel in those same conditions is subject to rust that cannot be seen and/or treated with the powder charge in place; the powder acting as a wick for moisture. No, not me. I'd sooner swab the barrel dry and start with a fresh powder charge.
Again, this is just me speaking my view. But I appreciate your input. :grin:
As far as your question goes, Spence...I'm not even 100% sure my stance IS correct regarding corrosion. That being said, I'd still rather not take the chance, no matter how minute. I, too, heard the rank & file drill when I started shooting. But my bores remain rust-free after thirty years of shooting the Dreaded P-Word...so I guess I must be doing something right? :idunno:
Having read & enjoyed many, many of your posts, understand I'm speaking from a personal point of view.
1) An unloaded gun never, ever had an accidental discharge. Not once.
2) An unloaded gun never misfired. Fresh powder in the barrel is always better, IMHO. I fully grasp the concept of hunting camp, having done it myself, and leaving the rifle uncapped, but loaded for several days. But not in my car, on the drive home, and not in my garage or closet for several weeks or months. Powder can be weakened/contaminated by grease, oil, moisture, etc. over time.
3) For those who argue self-defense, I offer the following:
a) Get real. "Murdering ***** Savages" don't kick in the door to your cabin anymore. And if your door IS kicked in by modern-day "savages", might I suggest a Remington 870? I truly think you'll fare better.
b) If you insist in defending your humble abode with a muzzleloader, I offer up that you are either living in the past, extremely cheap, or delusional. A good 870 can be purchased for the price of a Colerain barrel.
4) While an empty barrel can and will rust, given the right conditions, It's my (personal) opinion that a loaded barrel in those same conditions is subject to rust that cannot be seen and/or treated with the powder charge in place; the powder acting as a wick for moisture. No, not me. I'd sooner swab the barrel dry and start with a fresh powder charge.
Again, this is just me speaking my view. But I appreciate your input. :grin:
As far as your question goes, Spence...I'm not even 100% sure my stance IS correct regarding corrosion. That being said, I'd still rather not take the chance, no matter how minute. I, too, heard the rank & file drill when I started shooting. But my bores remain rust-free after thirty years of shooting the Dreaded P-Word...so I guess I must be doing something right? :idunno:
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1897 - 2005.
BOOOOM.
'nuff said.
tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund
BOOOOM.
'nuff said.
tac
Supporter of the Cape Meares Lighthouse Restoration Fund
Greenmtnboy
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two cents.
Right before I load my hunting rifle I swab out the nipple drum and barrel with rubbing alcohol, patch dry, load, then oil the barrel infront of the ball.
I don't expose it to fast tep changes and I keep my hunting rifles loaded all winter because I don't know what I may be doing.
I clear my flints once a month then clean it and reloade it the same way.
I clear all my percession hunting rifles right before antler picking season, on paper and have never had one perform poorly.
If I do shoot any in a hunting situation the gun gets cleaned throughly then reloaded.
:thumbsup:
Right before I load my hunting rifle I swab out the nipple drum and barrel with rubbing alcohol, patch dry, load, then oil the barrel infront of the ball.
I don't expose it to fast tep changes and I keep my hunting rifles loaded all winter because I don't know what I may be doing.
I clear my flints once a month then clean it and reloade it the same way.
I clear all my percession hunting rifles right before antler picking season, on paper and have never had one perform poorly.
If I do shoot any in a hunting situation the gun gets cleaned throughly then reloaded.
:thumbsup:
Absolutely. As with many other problems, there are many solutions, not a matter of right or wrong. If it works for you, it's right for you. We use different approaches and arrive at the same place, rust-free bores.CaptainKirk said:
I'm just curious how we come to believe what we do about all these things and how we react to new or contrary data.
Spence
I left mine loaded for the first time today thinking I'd try it out. Before hunting today I cleaned the oil out and after I was done I disabled the cap by taking the stuff out of it with my knife and left it outside in my hard case. I'll keep it in the back of my truck when I take it out again this weekend so no condensation builds up.
CaptainKirk
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Spence10 said:
Ahh....a THINKING man! I like it! :grin:
Spence, probably like you, I began shooting muzzleloaders "back in the day", long before forums, or even the internet, with few-to-none resources other than books or periodicals to fill in the blanks.(Not to mention educated guesses and "trial-and-error"!)
To me, a guy like Sam Fadala was the Wizard of Oz, and I read 'most everything I could find and adapted many of his methods and ideologies. He certainly had no bones to pick with Pyrodex or using unconventional cleaners or lubes (besides soapy water). I tried hot, soapy water on my first cap&ball, (in stainless, thank goodness!) and as the rinse water was drying, flash rust began forming on the plain steel "innards" parts...that quickly. I wiped it off and decided, at that point, that water and guns don't mix.For me, anyway. Incidentally, I don't believe the flash rust had anything to do with the propellant of choice that day. The problem has never reoccurred.
I think, however, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head...if it works for you, then it's right for you. Bravo and hats off :hatsoff: to you for being able to read between the lines and see what many others can't seem to grasp. :thumbsup:
Ken Cormier
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I unload every night and clean. But thats me being anal. Never know when I am going to get to hunt . I hate how work gets in the way of living. :surrender:
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i will confess to leaving a ROA loaded (although secured) under dry & cool conditions for (i don't remember exactly) between 18 and 24 months. All the cylinders fired without hesitation.
i learned a number of things:
* the ROA will tolerate being loaded (if kept clean and happy) as good as indefinatly.
* my 9mm will do the same thing
* sometimes, i'm too curious for my own good
just one guy's observation, not what you'd call a scientific result by any stretch of the imagination.
i learned a number of things:
* the ROA will tolerate being loaded (if kept clean and happy) as good as indefinatly.
* my 9mm will do the same thing
* sometimes, i'm too curious for my own good
just one guy's observation, not what you'd call a scientific result by any stretch of the imagination.
paulvallandigham said:
OK...just to stray a bit off topic....am I to understand that the owner feared a chainsaw might spook the deer,but knocking down a tree by firing 8 rifle shots into it is somehow better? :hmm: :youcrazy: FWIW,deer in these parts are actually attracted to the sound of a chainsaw,or they are in winter at least,when it usually means free grub and fresh hardwood tops on the ground.
hoochiepapa
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Same here! We used to carry a rifle during deer season while we were getting wood just in case a deer would come by. And they usually did.
paulvallandigham
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You will be amused, I am sure, when I tell you that after all 7 of us discharged our rifles at that apple tree, and there was NOT A LOADED GUN IN CAMP, 2 bucks ran through the meadow where we were camped, within 35 yards of all of us, and within minutes of those gunshots.
I have also seen deer grazing on rifle ranges, who were not spooked by the sound of gunfire, nor the sound of bullets zipping past them. I saw a fox cross a skeet range through the drop zone, and close enough that a good load of #5 shot might have reached out and killed him. And we had a ground squirrel( 13 stripe) come out from under the base at Station One in a skeet field while a group of shooters were shooting off Stations 6 and 7. He stood up and watched them shoot. He only went back into his hole when the shooters advanced to Station 8, walking towards him.
I do believe that wild animals of all kinds act quite a bit differently when living in wilderness areas, with little or no human contact. But, in the rest of this country, game animals don't seem to frighten as easily at the sound of tractors, cars, chainsaws, nor guns.
I don't think Don thought a chainsaw would spook the deer- he just wanted an excuse to use our MLers to take down that apple tree. :surrender: :v :rotf: :wink:
I have also seen deer grazing on rifle ranges, who were not spooked by the sound of gunfire, nor the sound of bullets zipping past them. I saw a fox cross a skeet range through the drop zone, and close enough that a good load of #5 shot might have reached out and killed him. And we had a ground squirrel( 13 stripe) come out from under the base at Station One in a skeet field while a group of shooters were shooting off Stations 6 and 7. He stood up and watched them shoot. He only went back into his hole when the shooters advanced to Station 8, walking towards him.
I do believe that wild animals of all kinds act quite a bit differently when living in wilderness areas, with little or no human contact. But, in the rest of this country, game animals don't seem to frighten as easily at the sound of tractors, cars, chainsaws, nor guns.
I don't think Don thought a chainsaw would spook the deer- he just wanted an excuse to use our MLers to take down that apple tree. :surrender: :v :rotf: :wink:
illuveatar
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I put 70 grains Pyrodex 3F behind a round ball on a borebutter patch. Generally I like to fire the gun at the end of the day and clean it but this year I let it sit for 3 days before I got around to discharging it. Pop . . . . . . no boom, I tried 4 caps, putting a bit of powder right into the nipple drum and still nothing. In the end I pulled the ball out and I don't think I'll be letting it sit loaded again.
But as to the corrosion part of the argument. Supposing the powder does corrode the metal, it would only effect the 2 inches or so at the breech and wouldn't cause any damage to the rifling. However I like to swab my barrels periodically whether I've shot them lately or not and one couldn't do that with a loaded gun.
But as to the corrosion part of the argument. Supposing the powder does corrode the metal, it would only effect the 2 inches or so at the breech and wouldn't cause any damage to the rifling. However I like to swab my barrels periodically whether I've shot them lately or not and one couldn't do that with a loaded gun.
