Leman "Trade" v. "Indian Trade" rifles?

[SimonKenton]

In the old GRRW catalog (back in the Dark Ages) they listed the two common types of Leman rifles as "Trade" (sold to trappers and such) and "Indian Trade" (presumable traded to local Indians for plews and such).

Is this a realistic image of these rifles? I have heard that while a Hawken was a valued rifle among trappers it has been said that they were vastly outnumbered by English rifles, Leman rifles and even some Appalachian rifles although Hawkens got all the press.

-Ray

 

[Dphar]

In the old GRRW catalog (back in the Dark Ages) they listed the two common types of Leman rifles as "Trade" (sold to trappers and such) and "Indian Trade" (presumable traded to local Indians for plews and such).

Is this a realistic image of these rifles? I have heard that while a Hawken was a valued rifle among trappers it has been said that they were vastly outnumbered by English rifles, Leman rifles and even some Appalachian rifles although Hawkens got all the press.

-Ray

If you have not you need the read "The Hawken Rifle: its Place in History" By Hanson
[url] http://www.ajarmsbooksellers.com/cgi-bin/ajarms/1090[/url]
Lots of rifles were used in the west but the "evolved" Hawken with its long top tang and trigger bar/trigger guard assembly was the best for horseback use/rough service and some famous people carried them.
The Leman's were often pretty cheap rifles with light weight stocks and small buttplates.
The Henry rifles were better IMO.
Since the Hawken WAS there it is perfectly acceptable as a western rifle as are British rifles with shotgun butts and sling swivels. Or even a Lancaster flintlock of any vintage. People took what they had west if the caliber was correct. Calibers under about 50 were pretty useless in the west. 54 was common since it could be used with a 1/2 ounce trade ball used in Fusils.
Dan

 

I don't know why GRRW made that distinction between the halfstock and fullstock Lemans. I figured that either style was available to any customer in the west whether they were brown, white, purple, or pink. I have seen both listed as Leman Trade Rifles for the western trade.

All of these rifles by all the makers changed and were improved on over the years as well as a more varied offering to the customers in mountings and other frills.

 

FWIW - despite current thinking amongst the uninitiated, the Lemans' were not widely used in the west until after 1840.

While Leman started his own business in 1834, it wasn't until late 1837 that he got his first contract with the US Indian Dept. and it wasn't until 1842, after the AMF folded that he sold guns in any quantities to the AMF's descendant, Pratte, Choteau, et al.

Most companies did sell both Trade rifles and Indian Trade rifles, but from my reading the only real difference was to whom they were sold. The Indians of the time did not accept inferior goods as is sometimes noted.

As to the Hawken and others - the Hawken didn't really receive anymore press than others until the 1840's (and more so in the 1970's onward). And yes the Hawken was limited in numbers when compared to the "big boys" such as Henry, Deringer, Tryon, etc.(which have at times been noted to be of poor quality by the purchasers and some observers). A good modern analogy - the Henry's, etc. were a production item akin to the Lyman GPR, while the Hawken was mostly a custom/customized item akin to a Don Stith Hawken or one made by our own Cooner54 (who IMO is modest about his talents..) or several others.

A bit of a time line for the western trade rifles:
pre-1826 Lancaster/American patterns:
Rifles were supplied by such makers as Dickert, Gomph, and Gill (Henry while making rifles early on didn't sell widely in the west until post 1826). The English pattern trade rifle (a sort of English copy of the American pattern first made in the late 1700's), was supplied from England up until at least 1824 (per a letter to Henry from J. J. Astor dated 1825).
Also many rifles were built "locally" - Ohio, western Penna, St. Louis, and the Southern mountain areas all had a plethora of gunmakers by the mid 1820's.
The western Hawken as epitomized by Jake and Sam was being built by Jake by 1819, and Sam showed up in St. Louis by 1822 - they joined forces in 1825. Their earliest rifles (pre 1825-30) were still in transition as to style and very probably did not look like their antecedents. One of the earliest Hawkens, a J & S, which is pictured in Baird's book as the Peterson rifle and is now at home in the Buffalo Bill Historical society), is considered to be of that era - it was once a full-stock arm and has many transitional features not seen on later pieces.

post: 1826 - 1842 = Lancaster/American
After about 1830 Henry was the main supplier to the AMF and other western suppliers. He also became the sole supplier of the early pattern English model and in 1834 developed the New English aka Scroll Guard rifle. In 1830 Henry also developed the steel/iron mounted trade rifle, which was close in price to the Hawken and was most likely developed due to the desire in the west for iron mounted rifles as typified by the So Mtn guns and the more developed Hawken (the picture often touted as being an iron mounted Henry isn't - it is a signed NC rifle with a Henry barrel and maybe some other parts - Henry also sold parts including barrels).
By this time there were also many more makers west of the Appalachians all the way into Missouri and Arkansas.


well that's enough for now.......

 

[SimonKenton]

So it wouldn't be out of place for a Bean style TN rifle in either .54 or .58 caliber flint to show up in the hands of some eastern hunter who got it in his head to go to the mountains?

What rifles DID the Indians usually carry? I thought some kind of smoothbore trade gun because they can shoot ball and shot equally well and would be more versatile for subsistence hunting.

-Ray

 

Depends on which Indians and which mountain men? Broad statements cover a lot of area real quick and innacurately. The Delaware and Shawnee hunters and trappers preferrd rifles considering the trade guns no better than spades. Not to say that no Delaware or Shawnee ever carried a trade gun. On the other hand, a trade gun may have been the cats meow for a Gros Ventres. Delawares and Shawnees preferred rifles since the 1740's and by the 1840's were definitely a race of riflemen.

 

[Herb]

Have you got the GRRW catalog with pictures of their rifles? The Leman Indian Rifle is shown with a short heavy barrel (1 1/16" x 30" long). The Leman Trade rifle they listed in .45, .50, .54, .58 and .62 calibers in 1", 1 1/16" or 1 1/8". I built a .45 in their shop in 1978.

The copy says "The Leman Rifle: Henry Leman started business in 1834 in Lancaster, Penna., producing a longrifle in the classic Pennsylvania tradition. Later, he contracted to build many rifles for the U.S. Government which were used as treaty payments or annuities to various Indian tribes. His rifles were also traded extensively on the Western frontier to fur trappers and buffalo hunters.

"Leman's rifles were made for men on the move. They were shorter and somewhat lighter than the usual rifle although they usually came equipped with a relatively heavy barrel in large caliber. They balanced well and were easily carried by a hunter on foot or horseback and were far easier to handle in brush or timber than earlier longrifles.

"Beautiful becasue of their very simplicity, Leman's rifles were usually fitted with plain wood and plain brass butt plate, and trigger guard. Triggers were usually simple single ones, and sights iron and open. Calibers were usually stout, averaging 54 in the specimens we've seen, as they were often used on bear and buffalo.

"Leman's rifle was a great favorite among the Indians. Early traders speak of the high regard that the Redman had for his Leman rifle. When a batch of guns were forcibly taken from the Sioux in 1868, over half of the guns were Leman rifles.

"We manufacture two basic styles of Leman Rifles. One is a Plains style halfstock rifle and is built in two sizes. The larger is called the Leman Trade Rifle, the smaller version the Little Leman. The other style is a short fullstocked Leman Indian Rifle. All are trimmed in brass and come with single triggers. All breeches are flint type. Percussion models come with screw in drum and nipple. Barrels may be pinned or keyed to the stock, although the pin is the traditional treatment. All steel parts are finished with our own durable brown. Hard maple stocks are finished with GRRW's special combination of oil and elbow grease. Fancy wood, set triggers, flint ignition and other options available at extra cost."

 

[Dphar]

So it wouldn't be out of place for a Bean style TN rifle in either .54 or .58 caliber flint to show up in the hands of some eastern hunter who got it in his head to go to the mountains?

What rifles DID the Indians usually carry? I thought some kind of smoothbore trade gun because they can shoot ball and shot equally well and would be more versatile for subsistence hunting.

-Ray

The Bean type rifle would have to have been made with a large enough barrel to allow being cut out to 54-58 since its highly unlikely it would have been made in that caliber. Any 50 cal Kentucky would be just fine for this. Much better gun than the Lemans. Leman was making FS flint rifles until at least 1840.

In 1744 an Indian agent traveling to Onondaga passed by the Shawnee towns and met a part of Shawnee's all armed with rifles, 2 pistols and a saber.
This, and some other interesting facts, is in the Indian Rifles in British Service to 1783 chapter of British Flintlock Militaty Rifles by Bailey. The eastern indians apparently used a lot of rifles and the europeans didn't like it a lot and took (futile) steps to limit their availability after the F&I War.

Dan

 

[colmoultrie]

Hmmm, I'm hearing some contradictory things here...

Many have asserted that rifles were rather rare among whites until after the F&I War; there is no known PA/"Kentucky" style identifiable before then, etc. Now I hear the Eastern Indians were well known as riflemen then, and after the F&I War, futile attempts were made to keep rifles out of their hands.

I don't think that the Indians were hogging the supply of rifles, keeping the poor, unfortunate white men from using anything but smoothbores, so we've got a disconnect here, or a disagreement between experts.

If the Delaware and Shawnee were riflemen by the F&I War, what style of rifles were they using, and if they were able to obtain them in quantity, why weren't white settlers? :hmm:

 

[SimonKenton]

This does not explain the Christian Springs RIFLE MAKERS who were cranking out Moravian School transitional longrifles long before F&I. The Ed Marshall Rifle was dated 1737.

-Ray

 

Moravians...missionaries to the Delawares in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
Delawares and Shawnees were allies/cousins.
Maybe that is part of the connection.

Another thought...Delawares and Shawnees preferred there rifles for hunting. They were market hunters. The rifle took second fiddle when at war. Smoothbores were preferred in the 18th century during the Ohio Valley Wars and before.
Out west...the Delawares and Shawnees preferred rifles for hunting and war. War was just an extension of hunting. Many of the same tactics were used for both. Hunting was done in packs just as warfare was done in packs. The French called us Le Loupes, wolves. The old warriors fought in small packs of 10 - 12 warriors. Hit hard and dissappear. When outnumbered spread out and use guerrilla tactics. You can cover a much larger territory that way. That is the way they used to fight and hunt.

 

This discussion is getting pretty wide in scope. I think the original question related to the western fur trade era. As stated about by folks like Gray Wolf (great post), there really was no differentiation between rifles intended for NDNZ and those everyday rifles for white trappers. There are a fair number of requisitions for 'fine rifles' with extra inlays and the like from the War Dept., NDN Dept., and trading companies over the years. These may have been gifts to tribal chiefs or just for who ever bought them. There's no evidence that they went to one of the other racial group. I like to think of trade rifles as the period correct version of Savages and Mossbergs. These were hardware store guns.

A couple of questions from posts above:

1) For Gray Wolf... Where did your info on English patterns coming from England and going to the American trading companies pre-1824 come from?

2) Cooner... Do you know the citation and date for the Delaware refusing NW guns in favor of rifles in treaty negotiations? I think this is the one where they reportedly said that NW guns made a 'poor spade handle' or something. Personally, I think this relates as much to the poor quality Belgian NW guns they were receiving from the US gov as much as their preference for rifles while tromping around the Plains.

Sean

 

Moravians...missionaries to the Delawares in Pennsylvania and Ohio.
Delawares and Shawnees were allies/cousins.
Maybe that is part of the connection.

Another thought...Delawares and Shawnees preferred there rifles for hunting. They were market hunters. The rifle took second fiddle when at war. Smoothbores were preferred in the 18th century during the Ohio Valley Wars and before.
Out west...the Delawares and Shawnees preferred rifles for hunting and war. War was just an extension of hunting. Many of the same tactics were used for both. Hunting was done in packs just as warfare was done in packs. The French called us Le Loupes, wolves. The old warriors fought in small packs of 10 - 12 warriors. Hit hard and dissappear. When outnumbered spread out and use guerrilla tactics. You can cover a much larger territory that way. That is the way they used to fight and hunt.

Good post. Rifles were also a bit more economical to use. Most of these guns averaged around .47-.49 cal so they used less lead when using round balls.

Sean

 

[Okwaho]

This does not explain the Christian Springs RIFLE MAKERS who were cranking out Moravian School transitional longrifles long before F&I. The Ed Marshall Rifle was dated 1737.

-Ray

The Gunsmith shop at Christian Spring was established in 1762 by Andreas Albrecht and the first formal inventory there is dated in May,1762 .Albrecht left in 1766 to manage the Sun Inn in Bethlehem and John Christian Oerter was put in charge on Nov.24,1766.
Edward Marshall's walk took place in 1737 and it is thought by most serious students of early rifles that the undated and unsigned Edward Marshall rifle is a restocked German hunting rifle probably made at the Christian Spring shop in the 1770's. See "Rifles of Colonial America Vol.I PP.452-457 for a comparison of the Marshall rifle with No.103, the Brass Barreled Rifle which has an almost identical lock and a similar side plate.
Tom Patton

 

1) For Gray Wolf... Where did your info on English patterns coming from England and going to the American trading companies pre-1824 come from?

In October of 1825 William B. Astor wrote Henry, "on the subject of Rifles. We continue to import a part of those annually required for our trade; but we usually get 100 or 200 manufactured in the United States, and it will depend much on both price and quality whether we do not in future procure the whole quantity in this country."
In 1826 Henry first produced their Old English Model rifle....

re: Delawares and Shawnees:
David Zeisberger's "History of the Northern American Indians."
Zeisberger maintained a Moravian mission among the indians along the Muskingum River in 1779 and 1780.
He says this about rifles; "The Delaware Indians use no other than rifle-barrelled guns, having satisfied themselves that these are the best for shooting at long range, in which they are very skillful and shooting accurately. They have acquired considerable skill in making minor repairs when their weapons get out of order. Some have even learned to furnish them with stocks, neatly and well made. An indian really intent on making something will not spare pains or time in accomplishing his purpose even when he has not seen the thing made and takes great pride in the works of his hands. Among nations living farther inland the rifle-barrelled guns are rare and muskets are more commonly found, often in very poor condition, except among the Shawanose (Shawanese) who know and value the rifle-barrelled gun."

By 1800 or so other's of the so-called "civilized" tribes were also riflemen by preference as were in fact most "whites" in the west.
"30 best long square (actually octagon) Barreled rifles, 50 Good Rifles that cost no more than #13, smooth bore Guns not saleable to Chawtaw...."
Indian Trade Office, Choctaw Factory, 1809, Nat'l Archives

 

In October of 1825 William B. Astor wrote Henry, "on the subject of Rifles. We continue to import a part of those annually required for our trade; but we usually get 100 or 200 manufactured in the United States, and it will depend much on both price and quality whether we do not in future procure the whole quantity in this country."
In 1826 Henry first produced their Old English Model rifle....

I believe that's the info that John Parson's included in his 1952 article "Gunmakers of AFC". I was wondering if you'd dug up any specific orders for to any English companies. As of this point I haven't seen anything specific. Maybe Rodl will find something in the archives up at Ft. Union. There certainly isn't a lot of detailed info about the pre-1826 era for AFC.

BTW Chuck, missed your call as I was out elk hunting. Sent you some pictures via e-mail today. I'll try to give you a call this weekend.

Sean

 

2) Cooner... Do you know the citation and date for the Delaware refusing NW guns in favor of rifles in treaty negotiations? I think this is the one where they reportedly said that NW guns made a 'poor spade handle' or something. Personally, I think this relates as much to the poor quality Belgian NW guns they were receiving from the US gov as much as their preference for rifles while tromping around the Plains.

Sean

Sean, I don't remember where I read it. It may have been in the Kansas Historical Quarterlies. It's one of those things you read and you remember the meat and forget the source. Sorry!

 

Ray,

The more you read about who used what or who liked this or that - you'll drive yourself nuts....

GRRW
When Dr. Gary White started GRRW in Boulder, Colorado in the early 1970's I was one of his first dealers in the state in 1973. I still talk to Doc every 3-4 months between his North Ameican and African hunting trips. He still builds guns (see Track of the Wolf ads) always fun to talk to. The Leman models he was copying came from several different guns that were produced in the day by that firm. He took pictures and measurements of the two Lemans we had in our collection and several others we found in private collections in the Denver area. When he started offering Hawkin rifles we found several from different parts of the country. Nationally known antique arms dealer Jack Davis would come to the Colorado State Shoot each year from Ohio and bring whatever Doc was looking for to copy. He brought three 80%-85% Hawkins rifles one year, one a full stock percussion (Doc offered that gun as percussion or flint). A good friend has the first flint one GRRW built S/N #001. That set John Baird (Buckskin Report) off on one of his witch hunts about not being correct. My friend asked me to call Charley Hanson knowing he had connections all over the world to find a full stock flint Hawkins or if anyone knew of one. Several weeks to a month later Hanson found three guns, one in Canada at the "Museum of Man" the other at "Smithsonian" in DC, the third was questionable to possibly having been converted from percussion to flint.

TRADEGUNS
I read someone said that the Eastren Indians liked rifles over tradeguns, true but not always what they used because of the cost. When I wrote the book "Success in the North American Fur Trade" I ran everything by Hanson as he was the expert and had resources with several other well known collectors that "would ate & sleep" tradeguns like him. He found a dozen different accounts of large numbers of the smoothbores being traded in most the eastern states of the US and Canada to local tribes as well as to the larger Nations. Accounts of traders complaining that the French were supplying parts for repairing them - hurting tradeguns sales.

This just shows you that we don't know as much as we think we do on who did what or the numbers sold. Remember these makers were taxed on what they produced and some builders put out statements of less than what was really built to their advantage in Europe and here, think about it. Old tax records are what many researchers use for much of their documentation on a subject.

"Documentation is only as good as the person that wrote it" was a quote that was on the wall of "Ohio Gun Collectors Guild's" main hall for years. The more you research anything the more that quote comes to mind???

 

Sorry to have been AWOL, health issues and having to unload items that my doctors say I should not take part in, old story that everyone will get their turn at. Hated to stop drag racing after 50 years and selling the horses and canoes. Now a ground pounder if the hill isn't to steep. We all have a number of hobbies and it finally sinks-in that we are not as young as we think we are, crap I think I'm still 50. !@#$%^

When some items are mentioned I enjoy taking part with what 70 plus years has shown me or what I thought I knew and have been straighten out by the likes of gentlemen like Charles E. Hanson Jr., T. M. Hamilton, Curly Gostomski, DeWitt Bailey or my Father and his collector friends. I use to feel like I had that red circle (Target brand logo) on my back.

I'll make an effort to keep up now that the big toys have been sold resently. Thank you for your time :hatsoff: