Length of Pull (lop)

[Curley 50 cal]

I would appreciate if some of you more experienced shoots would explain what this means and why it is significant to choosing a long gun.

 

[rich pierce]

Distance in inches from center of buttplate to where your finger touches the trigger.
A gun too long can be impossible to shoot. A gun too short can be shot quite well. Many tall guys think they need or would do better with a longer length of pull. I always ask customers whether they can shoot a standard off the shelf shotgun. Those usually have a LOP close to 13 and a half inches.

 

[Bob McBride]

LOP is the distance from the trigger to the center of the buttplate. 13.5" is about average for a man, 12.5" for a lady or man of about 5'7" and 14" is arguably for someone 6'4". More or less. I can shoot 12.5"-14" equally well but 13.5" seems most comfortable for the most people.

Didn't mean to double you Rich, we posted at the same time.

 

[Bob McBride]

Distance in inches from center of buttplate to where your finger touches the trigger.
A gun too long can be impossible to shoot. A gun too short can be shot quite well. Many tall guys think they need or would do better with a longer length of pull. I always ask customers whether they can shoot a standard off the shelf shotgun. Those usually have a LOP close to 13 and a half inches.

Most shotguns seem to be that way but my Benelli SBE3 and my Franchi both have 14 3/8" LOPs. I do find it a tad long. Maybe it's just those long armed Italians....

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

I would appreciate if some of you more experienced shoots would explain what this means and why it is significant to choosing a long gun.

If you want a LOP for yourself or a certain individual, this is what I do to determine a dimension. Take your trigger hand and raise it until the lower arm is horizontal with the shoulder. Measure from the inside of the elbow to a right angled trigger finger. Not sure where I got this method, but it has worked for me for decades. As said before, shorter is better than longer.

 

[Curley 50 cal]

Thanks Muzzle loader team. Appreciate the input

 

[hawkeye2]

Length of Pull is properly measured parallel to the bore and is the distance from the portion of the trigger where your finger goes to the closest part of the curve of the butt plate. Most folks seem to take a tape and measure directly from the trigger to the butt plate and usually the measurement is reasonably close. I have actually watched the N-SSA Small Arms Committee measure this way and have never heard of a gun being rejected for LOP even if measured wrong. There are special tools for measuring pull and stock drop and if you go to Brownelll's website you can see them there. A short LOP is far better than one that's too long and you can compensate unless it's far too short. Actually a slightly short pull can be an advantage when wearing heavy clothing and it also tends to make the gun quicker to shoulder.

 

[Art Caputo]

I agree, shorter is better then longer, particularly if you shoot in climates whether the mount of clothing can effect the LOP. I think it’s more important shooting shotguns, particularly if you are an instinctive style shooter(eye on the target, not the sight) where stock dimensions are an important factor in not only the degree of accuracy, but the speed of mounting to the shoulder. You don’t want the heel of the stock snagging your clothing in the armpit area. Too short/too long can many times be tuned in by the distance that you place your support hand on the stocks fore-end. When bird hunting in freezing temps and heavy clothing, my support hand is placed a couple of inches closer then when I shoot in just a shirt on the warmer days. Watch out for a rifle with set triggers. I have seen quite a few rifle shooters easily set their trigger, but have to re-position the rifle to reach the forward trigger. This LOP is too long. In this case, an 1-2’ can make the difference, particularly when hunting, and/or shooting off-hand. IMO.

 

[Brokennock]

Shorter is generally better, especially for a gun with sights. It allows for changes of weather and the shooter wasting more, or thicker, or less clothing.
My smoothrifle is really too long for me. It us fine in spring summer and most of fall. But with winter clothing it can be a problem to get properly shouldered.
I mention sights only because a shotgun needs to "fit" properly to hit well with. This can compound the clothing issue as one does not have a rear sight to compensate for the different fit, and thus different relationship of the eye to the front sight.

 

[George]

LOP and some other aspects of gun fit.

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/fit.html
Spence

 

[Bighorserider]

I am very tall hence the screen name. I built myself a rifle with a 17 inch lop and love it. A 13 inch feels like a kid's toy.

 

[kje54]

I'm 5' 7" and my optimal LOP is 12 1/2" to 13", 13 1/2" is about the longest I can comfortably reach.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The position you shoot from can make a difference, as well as the clothes you will be wearing. Prone guns need longer LOP's than guns intended for standing position. LOP and stock fit is usually a more critical element for a shotgun that is mounted, pointed, and shot quickly than it is for a rifle, which is deliberately aimed.

 

[Musketeer]

I measured my LOP with the inside-of-elbow-to-bent-trigger-finger method and came up with 13.25". My Bess's LOP measures out to 14.5", and it's not at all uncomfortable for me to shoot. The only time I've ever had an issue with LOP is on an air gun I have. It's a Crosman pistol that can be made into a rifle with the addition of a longer barrel and their factory bolt-on stock, which is notoriously long. In rifle configuration the LOP is about 16.5". I can shoot it with iron sights just fine (though it feels a bit awkward), but with a scope mounted I cannot get proper eye relief, as the scope is too far away, even moved as far back as I can.

In any case, I think shooting a long gun with iron sights makes LOP less significant than it would be while shooting a shotgun/fowler that requires quick mounting and natural pointing or while shooting something with an optic where eye relief is a concern. Obviously if you have a LOP that's so long that your strong arm is nearly straight and/or you can't see through your optic or one so short that you are horribly scrunched up while shooting and/or your optic is hitting you in the forehead, that's going to be uncomfortable and not conducive to good shooting, but otherwise it seems one can get away with a fair amount of too long or too short (say 1.5") when it comes to LOP.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Interesting responses from people of different sizes. Obviously, LOP is a very personal matter. I'm 5'7" and can handle a 14" pull on modern rifles. But that is too much for me with shotguns. For ml rifles, in the past, a 14" was good. My Little Fella is a bit less than that. My wife has a ml rifle with 12 1/2" pull and that is way too short for me. This is why 'try' stocks were invented.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I will propose the theory that the other aspects of butt architecture are far more important in achieving shooter comfort than LOP (on a rifle). Those being;

1.) Cast on or off
2.) Drop at the comb
3.) Twist
4.) Pitch
5.) Butt plate shape
6.) Comb rollover profile
7.) Trigger reach
8.) Wrist profile

LOP really only affects how long or short your arm is out there in front of your face where you grab the stock and reach the trigger, and, apart from anything absurd, you can vary that distance quite a bit to adjust, so long as the other architectural features are in harmony with it, your unique physical anatomy, and your particular shooting position.

LOP is the one architectural feature that people talk about all the time, but it's just one of several, and they all interact with one another. What it's really all about is being able to achieve harmony between all of them in gaining a stable and comfortable sight picture, and then allow you to manage recoil after the shot break.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think LOP is too frequently neglected as a topic, and there is a lot of good information in the posts here.. It is probably more of an issue for us shorter folks than the tall fellows (I am 5'6"). It appears that about 14" has become almost an industry standard for muzzleloaders, although the several unmentionable rifles I have in the stable measure a surprisingly uniform 13-3/8". I wish the major muzzleloader manufacturers would adopt a similar standard, or maybe offer a "short" and a "long" option. As so many have said above, the thickness of the clothing you wear can also have an effect. A lot of hunting is done during colder months when thicker clothing is worn... It would only make sense to produce hunting rifles with a shorter pull. I believe that the Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle and the Austin & Halleck Mountain Rifles may have been around 13-1/2" or a smidge less, but other manufacturers, as far as I know, have not followed their lead.

If the LOP is too short for you, and you're in the habit of holding your rifle with your hand wrapped around the wrist, your thumb may poke you in the nose with recoil. You learn to adjust your hand placement. There's not a lot you can do to compensate for a LOP that is too long. It's best to get one that fits. For me, that would be around 13-1/4" to 13-1/2". Fourteen inches or over would be and has been a deal-breaker for me when considering a gun purchase.

You can measure from inside your bent elbow to the first joint of your trigger finger and get an approximate measure, but the best way is to try a bunch of guns and measure the ones that feel "right."

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Grenadier1758]

I've been making my rifles with a LOP of about 13 1/2" Seems to work out pretty well for me.

 

[kje54]

I think LOP is too frequently neglected as a topic, and there is a lot of good information in the posts here.. It is probably more of an issue for us shorter folks than the tall fellows (I am 5'6"). It appears that about 14" has become almost an industry standard for muzzleloaders, although the several unmentionable rifles I have in the stable measure a surprisingly uniform 13-3/8". I wish the major muzzleloader manufacturers would adopt a similar standard, or maybe offer a "short" and a "long" option. As so many have said above, the thickness of the clothing you wear can also have an effect. A lot of hunting is done during colder months when thicker clothing is worn... It would only make sense to produce hunting rifles with a shorter pull. I believe that the Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle and the Austin & Halleck Mountain Rifles may have been around 13-1/2" or a smidge less, but other manufacturers, as far as I know, have not followed their lead.

If the LOP is too short for you, and you're in the habit of holding your rifle with your hand wrapped around the wrist, your thumb may poke you in the nose with recoil. You learn to adjust your hand placement. There's not a lot you can do to compensate for a LOP that is too long. It's best to get one that fits. For me, that would be around 13-1/4" to 13-1/2". Fourteen inches or over would be and has been a deal-breaker for me when considering a gun purchase.

You can measure from inside your bent elbow to the first joint of your trigger finger and get an approximate measure, but the best way is to try a bunch of guns and measure the ones that feel "right."

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

I've seen some really nice deals on this forum that I passed up because the LOP was too long.
Another thing that comes into play which is rarely covered is body style and flexibility, not just one's height. Thicker muscles, excessive adipose tissue (body fat), condition of shoulder and arm muscles. etc. It all comes into play.

 

[kje54]

I've been making my rifles with a LOP of about 13 1/2" Seems to work out pretty well for me.

That seems to be a fairly good average point.