Lengthening forcing cone to reduce cylinder gap, in revolver with integral barrel.

[Pukka Bundook]

Gents,
My one and only revolver is an 1850 -odd British Tranter-Adams -Kerr.
Its rough pitted and had been beat to death when I got it.
Straightened it out, and the timing was still right on.
Even with a rough bore, it shoots better groups than a lot of modern pistols and revolvers.
Its only problem is it has a huge cylinder gap.

Like 60 thou!
With a ball it doesn't spatter lead and shoots straighgt, but I have to load heavy- ish charges so the balls hav eenough oomph to make it out the muzzle.

Would like to make and fit a longer forcing cone.
Barrel was made one piece with action. It was the way they did it.
I have taken up cylinder slap with a washer at front.
Washer at rear of cylinder messes with hand function.

A mate in NZ had a bloke make a forcing cone that fitted in the Old forcing cone, and came back to cylinder to give him .006" clearance.
His gun the first time out shot a mid 80's score at 50 yards, one handed so it can work.

Seems my cone is rougher than his.
Tried twice to make such an animal that would fit in my original forcing cone, but wall on the taper gets so thin it crumples.

It Looks like I need to pilot a guided rod from muzzle, through the barrel, then attach an end mill cutter and draw it back into the old forcing cone, cutting a square seat for the new longer cone.

Does anyone have

any ideas if this sounds plausable?

Going buying a repro percussion isn't possible at present with the idiots running this country, and anything half decent antique wise is in the 2,500 to 5,000 dollar range because of this.

Any thoughts, suggestions or anything else most appreciated.

Must be losing an awful lot of pressure with its present gap!

Best,
Richard.

 

[M. De Land]

Gents,
My one and only revolver is an 1850 -odd British Tranter-Adams -Kerr.
Its rough pitted and had been beat to death when I got it.
Straightened it out, and the timing was still right on.
Even with a rough bore, it shoots better groups than a lot of modern pistols and revolvers.
Its only problem is it has a huge cylinder gap.

Like 60 thou!
With a ball it doesn't spatter lead and shoots straighgt, but I have to load heavy- ish charges so the balls hav eenough oomph to make it out the muzzle.

Would like to make and fit a longer forcing cone.
Barrel was made one piece with action. It was the way they did it.
I have taken up cylinder slap with a washer at front.
Washer at rear of cylinder messes with hand function.

A mate in NZ had a bloke make a forcing cone that fitted in the Old forcing cone, and came back to cylinder to give him .006" clearance.
His gun the first time out shot a mid 80's score at 50 yards, one handed so it can work.

Seems my cone is rougher than his.
Tried twice to make such an animal that would fit in my original forcing cone, but wall on the taper gets so thin it crumples.

It Looks like I need to pilot a guided rod from muzzle, through the barrel, then attach an end mill cutter and draw it back into the old forcing cone, cutting a square seat for the new longer cone.

Does anyone have View attachment 281760View attachment 281761any ideas if this sounds plausable?

Going buying a repro percussion isn't possible at present with the idiots running this country, and anything half decent antique wise is in the 2,500 to 5,000 dollar range because of this.

Any thoughts, suggestions or anything else most appreciated.

Must be losing an awful lot of pressure with its present gap!

Best,
Richard

If the barrel is thick enough than I believe it very feasible to bush the forcing cone area with a barrel extension back to a reasonable cylinder gap. I've seen this even done with chamber bushings in high power rifles but the joint was in the neck of the case not in any part of the bore proper that the bullet had to traverse.
The extension/barrel joint will have to be extremely close fit and hard soldered into place with a forward leaning butt joint angle .
A better idea though would be to reline the old barrel with a whole new liner so there is no forcing cone joint for the bullet or ball to traverse.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for your thoughts on this MDL,

The liner sounds ideal if I could find someone up here to undertake it. Could do it myself if I can find a maker of pistol barrel liners I reckon.

Would a liner be thick enough to make a decent forcing cone, (the extension part that would be free standing MDL? Or would it be required to slip a collar over it to give it weight?

The new forcing cone I mentioned a mate in NZ having, was glued in with Loctite 272....(rightly or wrongly!)

Thank you again,
R.

 

[Phil Coffins]

A liner sounds like good idea, find any barrel that is the correct bore and twist. Bore out the barrel from the muzzle as large as reasonable then turn the barrel to be a close fit with extra length. After installing trim the breech end to make the barrel cylinder gap to what you like and crown the muzzle. If you do this be sure to give us a thread on it!

 

[SDSmlf]

The liner sounds ideal if I could find someone up here to undertake it. Could do it myself if I can find a maker of pistol barrel liners I reckon.

You could possibly order a barrel liner from a place like TOW….. if one can be shipped to you. Barrel liners: breech loading rifle bore liners - Track of the Wolf

 

[earlwb]

If it has a fair amount of endshake with the cylinder and frame, you could get it machined for a spacer to move the cylinder forward more. I have seen that done with cap and ball revolvers before, mostly the brass frame ones but steel too.

 

[deerstalkert]

hard solder a spacer to the front of the cylinder. full circle disk.

 

[user 34300]

"hard solder" means hihg temp silver solder, aka silver braze. That has a 1500*F working temp.

Line line it, sure. Loctite shaft sealant is the modern way to affix it.

I would also investigate a thin washer behind the cylinder. Some 1/16" brass will be about right. Soft solder it in place.

Does the standing breech have an insert? Maybe make a new insert

 

[nhmoose]

I would just shoot RB's from it and warn bystanders it may spit. They are not making any more of them. Don't ruin it for the next caretaker when you pass.

 

[nhmoose]

I would just shoot RB's from it and warn bystanders it may spit. They are not making any more of them. Don't ruin it for the next caretaker when you pass.

Lengthening the forcing cone will do nothing to tighten the gap. Removing metal never lengthens. A liner could correct the gap but unless done by a good restorer will look like crap.

 

[Sam squanch]

You may need to do the work yourself. I doubt if any gunsmiths in Canada would even look at it.

 

[M. De Land]

If it has a fair amount of endshake with the cylinder and frame, you could get it machined for a spacer to move the cylinder forward more. I have seen that done with cap and ball revolvers before, mostly the brass frame ones but steel too.

That can work as well if the hand is stretched but as the barrel throat is already pitted the liner would be the better way to go. I've lined quite a few rifle barrels , as a matter of fact I'm currently building a 32-40 that is relined from a liner I got from TOTW.
Phil has it right all that is needed is a pistol barrel of the right caliber that can be turned down to fit a bored out original barrel and soldered, glued or loc-tited in place. I've used all three but prefer the old method of sweating them in with solder.
I've never lined a hand gun before but with the exception of barrel set up in the lathe to bore out the barrel all would be precisely the same as with a rifle barrel.
Actually, given the right liner OD it can all be done by hand with the correct tools !

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks to all for your replies,

It seems there is some confusion about what I wrote.
Please bear with me.
I took up end shake with a washer at front of cylinder, as even a thin one at the rear of the cylinder messed with lock up timing.

When I say lengthen forcing cone, I do not mean bore it Deeper, but Add a sleeve to forcing cone bringing it back to within normal clearance of the cylinder, say .006"
Said sleeve would fit into old forcing cone less than a quarter inch, maybe an eighth, not measured it yet, and have a flange where it rides up near the cylinder.
I looked at Track's site, and .45 can liners are available in a min of 8" length. That is fine, at $8.00 odd an inch, But, the minimum order is for eight of them. I cant think why I'd need 64" of liner for a six inch barrel, so that is a no go.

Thanks again and hope I may have cleared up what I was thinking about.
Any further comments most welcome!

Rich.

Just want to add it doesn't spit lead with a ball, but must be losing a lot of power with such a gap!
It shoots very accurately, and even granddaughter can put holes near touching at close range, say 15 yards.

No standing breech insert, Scota. That would be a lot of help if there was!

 

[M. De Land]

Thanks to all for your replies,

It seems there is some confusion about what I wrote.
Please bear with me.
I took up end shake with a washer at front of cylinder, as even a thin one at the rear of the cylinder messed with lock up timing.

When I say lengthen forcing cone, I do not mean bore it Deeper, but Add a sleeve to forcing cone bringing it back to within normal clearance of the cylinder, say .006"
Said sleeve would fit into old forcing cone less than a quarter inch, maybe an eighth, not measured it yet, and have a flange where it rides up near the cylinder.
I looked at Track's site, and .45 can liners are available in a min of 8" length. That is fine, at $8.00 odd an inch, But, the minimum order is for eight of them. I cant think why I'd need 64" of liner for a six inch barrel, so that is a no go.

Thanks again and hope I may have cleared up what I was thinking about.
Any further comments most welcome!

Rich.

Just want to add it doesn't spit lead with a ball, but must be losing a lot of power with such a gap!
It shoots very accurately, and even granddaughter can put holes near touching at close range, say 15 yards.

No standing breech insert, Scota. That would be a lot of help if there was!

I've seen used Ruger single action barrels at gun shows and shops, one in .45cal can be easily lathe turned into a liner . A liner wall of 4140 barrel steel of .060- .075 thickness would be plenty for your purposes.

 

[Sam squanch]

Ehhh… if it shoots accurately, why mess with it. It’s not like you can carry it for self defense in Canada anyway . It would be worth more $$ untouched, the antique handgun market up there being how it is.

 

[Rich44]

I have no idea the value of this handgun. You say it shoots fine with the rough bore. To keep it original, would simply make a new cylinder. Man made it once, man can make it again. Then you have a cylinder of proper length and the gun can be put back in same condition as shown. Would not take that long.

 

[Robin101]

Pukka, I'm not sure I understand the Ad from Track of the Wolf, Minimum order of eight pieces or eight inches. I'd call them.
Robin

 

[Jim in Wisconsin]

Pukka - I think Track of the Wolf means a minimum order of 8 inches, not 8 liners. It's sold by the inch, minimum of 8. It's $8 per inch so the liner would cost you around $64.
Hopefully the bore diameter would be the same as your cylinder diameter or slightly smaller. If the twist rate was the same that would be really great, but that probably won't happen. As M. De Land says, this would be an ideal fix.
As to the collector value, there are many opinions on that. Mine is that doing a good repair isn't spoiling anything, and that the original people who made it would agree. They would be proud that it's still around and that someone still cares about it.
Getting the barrel hole truly straight is the key, it would be best if it could be done on a milling machine. I guess it could be done on a lathe, but the set-up would be sort of difficult, because the entire frame would have to be rotating.

 

[Relic shooter]

My vote would to leave your accurate shooting revolver as-is & make sure nobody is standing next to you when firing.
I used to shoot an original .54 cal English sporting rifle by Stodenmier in competition, the bore was pitted from the breech to muzzle yet was a winner.
The deeply rifled bore just required a good scrubbing & lapping to shoot well.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you all for your valuable thoughts on this.
With it being so rough and abused, I don't think collector value is there, but its the only one I have and would like it to work with a charge that made it practical for varmints here on the farm.
The second hand barrel turned down sounds possible, but chucking it up in a lathe sounds like a task!

Making a cylinder to me sounds well beyond even figuring how!, but of course some folks are well versed in this proceedure.

Need to slug the barrel if I were to think of a liner, and thanks for the info on how I may be confused on Track's site, Jim and Rob!

Will keep you posted!

Rich.