Lets talk Turkey

[Rebel]

guns. Between these two guns, which one would most likely give the best patterns at 25-30 yds with good load development? A flintlock .20 ga with a 36" cyl. bore barrel, or a .flintlock .11 ga with a 30" cyl bore barrel. Not worried about how they shoot rd balls right now, just shot.

 

Well ya can generally pack more shot into the 11 ga, so my view would be that you would get more pellets on target with the 11 ga. But all guns pattern different, and the proof is in patterning each one and finding out what you get. Also depending on the style of fowler how comfortable is it to shoot. Since we're talking turkey, I'd want to see what it does on a standard turkey target, with #4, #5, and #6 shot respectively. Even how you load can affect the pattern. That's what is so much fun is the shootin to find out what really works part.

Bill

Every morning is the Dawn of a new Error!

 

[paulvallandigham]

I know that you can get plastic shotwads for the .20 ga. but am not sure that you can find them for the 11 ga. If you choose to use them, the plastic shotcup may just tighten those patterns a bit more than anything else you can do, short of sending a barrel off to be jug choked. I certainly think the barrel on the 20 is long enough. With any black powder gun that is not choked, you want to get tht turkey within 30 yds, and preferrable within 25 yds, no matter what load you use. Do you have a rear sight on either of the guns to help in pointing the gun? Shotguns firing pellets can kill flying birds at 40 yds, and sometimes beyond that because the pattern continues to open as the yardage increases. But most turkeys will be killed on the ground, with a well aimed shot centered on the head and neck area. A rear sight, even a temporary one, would be a great aid to accuracy, and shot placement. More so as the range increases.

 

[Rebel]

This was one of them hypothetical questions. I have the .11 ga with the 30" barrel right now but was thinking of selling it and getting another .20 ga with a 36" barrel. All of the turkeys i have shot so far have been under 25 yds. I try to keep it that close no matter which gun i use. I may just go ahead and keep the Bess carbine and use it. I would think it would do as well as the Navy Arms double barrel .12 ga i had with 28" cylinder bore barrels. That one took 2 turkeys with 1 shot each.

 

[Tinker2]

Rebel

I have flintlocks in the gage and barrel lengths that you
are asking about and both shoot great.


The shorter the shot column the better the pattern.
A little larger shot works better then a little smaller shot
in a cylinder bore.
A little less powder works better then a little more for a
good pattern.

This is what work For me anyways.
At least half the fun is working up the load isn’t it??


Tinker2

 

[Rebel]

Tinker, yea load development takes a while but it is fun. What load do you use in the short Bess you have? I was thinking i would start with 70 gr Goex 2f and 1 oz of shot and then try 1 1/8 and 1 1/4 oz and see which patterns best. Then try it with 80 gr of powder. What i am looking for is the tightest pattern i can get out to 25-30 yds. that has enough uuumph to kill a turkey. Ohh, i use #5 lead shot.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Rebel: I use a 2 3/4 Dram load of 2Fg powder,( 75 grains) with 1 1/4 oz of shot in my 12 gauge, for the tighest patterns. I am going to try to use even less powder, after reading the V.M. Starr article on ML Shotguns. I am thinking of trying 2 1/2 drams,( 69 grains) and 2 1/4 drams( 63 grains) under the same amount of shot to see if the groups tighten enough to be worthwhile. I already know that #5 shot will deliver the energy at those close ranges.

My mention of the shotcups is because that is where I am delayed, by weather, in doing my final research on pattern size. I have just begun some preliminary work with paper shot cups, and they were looking promising, but I also wanted to try the plastic ones to see if they would work.

Try the plastic 12 ga. shotcup in your 11 ga. Usually, the 12 ga. components hare a little smaller because they have to go inside those plastic casings. They may fit inside your 11 ga. barrel, too. Otherwise, you might see what Ballistic Products carried that would fit your gunbarrel.

 

[Rebel]

Paul, .12 ga shotcups would work in the Bess carbine over an overpowder wad, but i just can't bring myself to use them in a Bess. Seems sacriligous somehow. :grin: I will just have to keep my shots closer if i can't work up a load that patterns well to 30 yds.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I agree with you about using plastic being somehow must wrong! However, when it comes to wounding game, or killing them cleanly, I would rather swallow my concerns and use the plastic, if it will improve the pattern. You might work on paper shotcups. So far, I have found that using a reduced diameter mandrill to wrap the paper around, using either a 20 ga. rod or 16, ga. rod, for a 12 ga. gun, then putting a dry cushion wad in one end before folding the paper over that end to make the " cup P seems to work. I then dip the tub in melted wax, to lock in the folds on the bottom, and wax the sides up about 1/2 inch. Adjust the total length of the cup with the amount of shot you are loading, then cut wings or petals in the front of the cup to act as an airbrake when it leave the muzzle. The length of the petals determine how long it takes to open and release the shot, which in turn seems to have a positive effect in tightening the groups. That is the point where I am still experimenting. I am using 3M Post-it Note paper, because it comes with a glue strip on one edge I can quickly use to seal the paper tube. On top of the shot cup I use an ordinary overshot card, pierced with an awl to let air in so I can seat it easily on top of the load. The wax seems to melt and keep the fouling soft, BTW. I decided not to lube the cushion wads, because that would make them heavier, and I didn't want the wad following the shot and punching a hole in the pattern. I have been mkaing do with 20 gauge materials for my 12, because I could not find the 16 ga. wads I needed when I went looking. I think staying as close to the bore diameter of the shotgun will make any paper shot cup more effective, less likely to tear in the barrel, and obviously do a better job of protecting the shot from rubbing against the sides of the barrel. So, making 2 complete turns around the circumference of my mandrill produces a strong cup, that does not seem to tear in the barrel.

 

[hawk]

Rebel Ive tried the paper shot cup method that Musket man told me about last turkey season( maybe two seasons) and found them to do the job the plastic cups did .I agree with you about the plastic in bess and sought out the paper cup.
Paul brought up a good point the last time we spoke of powder /shot ratio and that was less powder to shot is the way to go remebering that the velocities needed to cleanly harvest turkeys are there and adding more powder to try and "magnumise" a black powder gun is a step backward ,opening the shot patern and in some cases punching a hole in the middle right were you want it most.
as for the other keep the bess until you build the 20 bore and make your choice then .
I would hate to sell a gun that shoots good to build one that may not.(been there done that)

 

[Trapper]

Paul,
I used your paper shot cups wrapped twice around a mandrel, but I did not put an over powder or overshot card in the bottom, nor did I wax the bottom of the cup. I need to try that next. I can tell you that with 60 gr of FFG, 3 overshot cards, paper shot cup with 1 1/2 oz of #4 shot, put 12 pellets into the head and neck area of a paper turkey target at 25 yards. So far I'm impressed, I just finished jug choking the 16 guage myself and have respectable patterns at 25 yards, about 75% of the shot in a 25 inch circle at 25 yrds.That load is 60 gr FFG, 5 overshot cards. 1 1/8 oz. #5 shot and 1 overshot card on top of the shot.I've tried the overpowder cards and wads but this combo in any combination has giant holes in the pattern. I think I'll stay with the overshot cards and play with shot size and powder charges and see if I can get the pattern smaller at 25 yrds. Hey all ya smoothbore shooters lets keep posting our experiments, it just might help someone else.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Trapper: I just learned on an earlier post about using several overshot cards instead of the heavy over powder card to seal the gases, and have yet to try them. I do expect to find what others have reported, and that is an end to the holes in the pattern. That, alone, should improve pattern density for turkey hunters.

I still have to figure out a way to get enough lube in the barrel to soften the fouling so that it can be removed easily, but that will come. Right now, I am thinking of trying 4 cards, each with a hole punched at 12 o'clock, but seated in the barrel so that the holes do not line up with each other. Then put a dab of lube on the bottom side of a 5th card, and run that down on top of the first four. That should squeeze( squish?) out the lube on firing so it lubes the barrel, and the process of loading the next set of cards should scrape all the crud off and push it back into the powder where it will be burned up with the next shot. That seems to be what happens with the !/8" overpowder cards when they are used. My only concern is the lube sticking two or more of the cards together, and defeating the purpose of using the overshot cards in the first place.


Someone else wrote in suggesting that cards be slit from one side to almost the center, so that they become very aerodynamically unstable as soon as they hit the air, this as a cure to following the shot. That is also on my list of experiments to try when its not 8 degrees outside! Perhaps some of our members who live in much warmer parts of this great country will get out and test these ideas and report back to those of us waiting for the thaw!

 

[Wehrmacht]

I am following this Thread very closely. My smoothbore/load knowledge is close to zero,but I'm learning and thinking! Many Thanks for posting your ideas and suggestions. I'm on the way to the Lake Cumberland Mini CLA Show Tuesday, but as soon as I get back I'll be out in the yard trying some of these ideas out with my 16ga double! :hatsoff:

 

[Rebel]

Ok fella, first, i have been shooting smoothbore, either cap or flint, for years now, so i know something about load development, (ie, less powder more shot, papaer shot cups etc. This was just a what if type question. I made some paper shot cups out of dime wrappers. The dime wrappers are a perfect fit in the Bess bore. Will give them a try next time out. I also layed awake last night thinking about the problem i had had with ignition with the Bess because the vent hole was low. Then it hit me, why not loosen the tang bot,( which by the way i had torqued down tight wehn i first got the gun) and shim the back of the barrel up a little to raise the vent hole. Worked great. The bottom of the vent hole is now just on the top edge of the pan. Haven't shot it yet since doing this last night, but figure it has to help to have the vent in the right place. Thanks for all the advice here.

 

[Hoyt]

You need to be careful using paper shot cups that you don't leave too much paper past the shot. It's possible the cup won't open and shoot like a slug. I had it happen to me on the first day of spring gobbler season last yr. Called in two gobblers up to about 18 to 20yds...drew a bead on one's head..shot and it just stood there looking around like what was that noise.
No way could I have totally missed that bird without at least a shot or two hitting it somewhere. When I got back to vehicle I put a paper target up against a tree and shot it. Had one big hole about the size of a quarter.
I had been leaving almost a half inch of paper past my shot and crimping it over. There seems to be a fine line as to how much you can crimp over using post it paper. I'd crimped about 1/8" over and got my best patterns..but 1/2" didn't open. I now try to not leave any extra paper past the shot column.

 

[Trapper]

Hoyt, my paper shot cups are only long enough for the shot charge, this seems to work OK for me. I just put an overshot card on the paper shot cup and shot charge.

 

[Rebel]

I took the short Bess out today to do some shooting with it since i figured out how to solve the vent hole being to low problem. Ignition was great today so i worked on shot loads. The first paper cup i tried did just what you described, went through the paper as a slug. I had left too much paper over the end. I found that Dime rollers are a perfevt fit in a Bess bore. I found 75 grs of Goex 2f, 2 thin overshot cards just started below the muzzle and then some grease smeared on them then 2 more thin cards seated on the powder, a dime roller paper shot cup, 1 1/4 oz of #5 lead shot, and then another overshot card gives a decent pattern out to 20 yds. 20 Yds is what i try to keep my shots at with cylinder bore guns. So it should work ok. I plan to do some more load work before spring turkey season though to see if i can improve it.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Talking about a paper cup not opening and going down range as a slug immediately raises a question with me. Wonder what a paper cup with, say,#4 or #5 shot purposely made NOT to open would do to a deer or hog at 20-25 yards :hmm:.

Probably wouldn't be legal on a deer, so don't think I'm suggesting it, but it would on a hog here in Florida. Question simply is....do you think it would have any more or any less knockdown power? My first thought is that it would make one horrible wound channel :shocked2:

 

[Rebel]

Seems to me like it would act like a Large Glaser Safety slug for handguns.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

For what it's worth my son and I went out pheasant hunting yesterday, and didn't see anything. We did however throw a dozen clays, and happily hit everything that was thrown.

I always use 4 overshot cards on top of the powder, and 2 on top of the shot. I lube only the outside edge of the cards with mink oil, and the cards are sufficiently slippery to load without sticking together. The mink oil is virtually invisible, and supplies all the lubrication necessary.

It did not brush the bore after several shots (because I typically don't shoot enough when hunting to need to brush) and the fowler loaded without difficulty. The cards are thin, and are easily loaded. I will mention that the gun seemed much dirtier when I cleaned it than it typically would have been if I had brushed. Still, since the fouling just pours out, I can't say it required longer to clean up.

Since I don't use any wads heavier than overshot wads, I have no means of verifying this, but people who use overpowder and cushion wads seem to have more difficulty loading, especially in cold weather than I do with just overshot wads. Guy's tell me that the cushion wads tend to break and jam up, and it sounds like a nuissance to me.
I tend to evaluate a load more on how it comes out of, rather than down the barrel and purely on that basis think overshot wads only perform much, much better.