Likin' ffg, should I try fffg?

[renovato]

It took a while to convince me to try FFFG. I am always resistant to change, I guess. Look how long it took me (decades) to realize that PRB work better than conicals.

Anyway, it works better in all my rifles. I get tighter groups, faster ignition and less fouling. Considering I have a bunch of pistols and revolvers too, it made my life easier just buying one grade of powder.

I'd say it's worth investing in a can to try it. You'll have to work up new loads and all, but it might be worth the effort. Start off reducing your FFFG loads 10-15% less than your FFG loads and see how that works out. You might not need to do much tinkering to find the new sweet spot.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Hey Brown Bear,

Is the drum bolster that cylindrical thing that sticks off the side of the barrel and holds the nipple? If so then yes, that's what mine has.

It does kind of seem like the flash would shoot straight down and then have to jog left to get to the powder. It makes sense that there would be potential for crud to get in the way. But there's a screw on the end of the drum. I've learned to open that and stick a pipe cleaner in after every few shots. That seems to help.

Ben

If you polish that flash channel, so that is is very smooth, it will not hold crud to block the flame from the nipple. Sometimes, the drum has to be removed from the barrel, and opened up a drill bit size or two, and then polished, but it will improve the ignition and cleaning of that channel at the end of a shoot.

You should not have to remove the clean-out screw every few shots. If crud is plugging that channel, there is a reason, and its probably that the channel is rough, either from corrosion, or from the original casting, or drill work.

 

[tg]

". Look how long it took me (decades) to realize that PRB work better than conicals."

That is a myth,you have been brainwashed, if PRB was sufficient for hunting game the conical bullet would not have been invented, a conical is better, lets you shoot farther, with more terminal energy, much like modern large bore centerfires, but it is your gun, you should build it the way you want and shoot what you want out of it, we must hang together or hang alone,if we don't agree about the use of modern bullets and sights they will take our guns away because we are fighting amongst ourselves, PRB...bad.. conical good.. stick together or hang... a bullet is a bullet...
have I forgotten anything?.....

 

[wwpete52]

If I am not mistaken Turner Kirkland, the late founder of Dixie Gun Works, was a believer in using FFF in larger calibers even though many of the loading recommendations for various rifles they sold stated FF loads. When I first started shooting BP years ago the wisdom was .45 caliber could go either way (FFF or FF). Below .45 use FFF. Above .45 use FF. I knew one fellow who used F in his Brown Bess.
When I was shooting flinklocks I would use FFF for the load and the priming load with no problems. In my Bess I would use FF and prime with FF with no problems.
I have several cans of FF and FFF. When I use all of the FF I will probably just buy FFF.

 

[jrozelle]

I shoot nothing but 3-f GOEX in ALL my caplock guns- .32 squirrel, .36 in-line pistol, .50 hawken, .54 custom target rifle, and an 1853 3-band Enfield, and ALL with patched round ball. My whole club shoots it. The only exception is 4-f for priming the flintlocks... Jack's Powder Keg has the best price I've found on GOEX. Call Angelo at 888-245-9631 or [email protected]

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

You can get GOEX from Track for $12.88 a pound in 25 pound lots and they pay the Haz-Mat fee.

 

[Raider2000]

I've been using FFFG for all my rifles & C&B Revolvers since 88' & have not looked back & when I'm forced to use a Sub will only use Pyrodex P because of its similarity "just a little stubborn to ignite.”
I’ve tried FFG & Pyrodex RS a couple of times when I had ran out at the range & with FFG my groups would inevitably open up & when it came to my CVA Bobcat it really does not like RS at all “very hard to ignite & unpredictable groups.

 

[Moloch]

I also use 3FG in ally my guns, even in my big bore .69 with concials. With 2FG fouling is worse, accuracy is not good and the miniè skirts dont expand that well. With 3FG there is hardly any fouling and accuracy makes a big jump. But it recoils a lot more.
I wish my rifles would shoot good with 2FG because 80 grain 3FG is really hard on my .69 rifle with the 730 conicals - but 2FG just does not work at all. All the other people shooting their rifled musket use also 3FG because they also got problems with expanding miniés using 2FG. :hmm:

 

[paulvallandigham]

MOloch and others: My brother and I screened some Goex FFg powder a couple of years ago, and removed from it a lot of " fines" or " dust ". I believe that much of the dust is graphite, which, being a coating, is the first substance knocked off the granules of powder.

When we fired the FFg powder, we were pleasantly surprised to find that we had NO MORE residue in the barrel than we did using FFFg. In fact, we were so surprised that we both checked the powder to make sure we were using FFg rather than FFFg powder( we carry both to the range, along with FFFFg priming powder) Peter had marked the can that was sifted, and sure enough, the FFg powder was out of that can. We even fired some FFg from a can that had NOT BEEN sifted, that I had in my range box, and got the usual clinkers, and residue I have come to expect with FFg powder.

When Peter returned home, he happened to take new readings over his chronograph, using the sifted powder, and the standard deviation of velocity ( SDV) was less using the sifted powder.

Just this week, Pete was comparing Goex FFFg powder to Swiss FFFg powder The Swiss beat out the Goex, but the difference in velocity was much greater when NO OP WAD was used. When he used an OP WAD, the two powder's velocity and SDV were closer together.

He has not sifted ( screened) the Goex FFFg powder, but he noted, in his email to me, that the powder had a lot of " dust " in it when he weighed out the charges on his scale, compared to the Swiss powder. He is going to redo the test on the Goex, after screening the dust out of the powder. My theory, which he will test, is that much of that dust is Graphite, which contributes NOTHING to the velocity of the powder, as it does not burn.The more graphite replaces actual Black Powder, the wider the SDV will be.

We have found in our tests that using an OP WAD helps to burn FFg powder more completely, and eliminates much of the residue we all expect. That indicates just how important having a good gas seal in the barrel is for proper burning to occur. And, as the granule size increases, the need to have that good gas seal increases.( The SDVs are lower when the OP wads are used with both powders.)

We also are finding that getting out the dust, and " fines " from the powder, so that the powder is more uniform in granular sizing aids in more complete combustion. This is reflected in not only easier cleaning and less "clinkers", but by a reduction in the SDV figures.

Since GOEX moved its operations from Pennsylvania, to Louisianna, to their new plant, the powder they produce seems to have less fines in it. ( The benefit of having old guys like me around is that we still have powder we bought years ago! on hand, and we are always picking up new cans of powder when we can find " a deal!") I believe the company is quietly responding to the market place, and the competition that its getting from the Swiss powder among serious target shooters. Its just making a better product.

You should note that it now markets, at a higher price, " Cartridge Grade Powder" which appears to be FFFg powder, but powder that has been more carefully screened to size the granules. It also seems to have less " dust " in the can. There is no reason the cartridge grade powder can't be used in MLers.

Peter and I have talked about his results from his comparison of Goex and Swiss, and he is not satisfied that he controlled properly for all the variables he could. So, he intends to repeat the testing, changing a couple of things. When those results are in, we will compare them to the results he got this week, and he will post his findings here.

We have no doubt that the swiss powder is producing more velocity, and is cleaner, but we want to determine just how close or far apart the two powders are, when our Goex is cleaned up a bit. Then we can honor our late father's reputation for being " frugal", and determine whether the added cost of the Swiss powder is worth spending. :wink: :rotf:

So far, the nod is to the Swiss powder for serious target competition. For off-hand shooting, and hunting, save your money. :shocked2: :hmm: :thumbsup:

 

[59sharps]

with swiss I was able to drop my load by 10%. and get better groups So that helps w/ the extra $$$ per pound.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The question becomes, then, are you paying ONLY ten percent MORE for the Swiss powder? No? :thumbsup:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

What's Swiss going for these days? $22 or $23 per pound? Before shipping? Makes GOEX a real bargain by my way of figuring.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sh-h-h! Rusty! YOu are getting ahead of me. I am trying to convince my brother than he is wasting good money on the expensive powder for very little gain. Remember, my father was known as a " Frugal " guy, and he passed that on in my genes. I also like to support American Businesses. That may sound a bit corny to some folks, but I can live with their giggles.

What I may do, if I can find a source, other than through the mails, is buy a can of cartridge grade, and test that basic FFFg powder, that has been polished better than regular FFFg, and costs more, I am told. I think we can get even closer results with that powder, than with ordinary FFFg powder. However, I do want to assure you that even with his testing, just the use of OP wads with the two brands of powder brought the velocities and SDV closer together. When I factor the difference in powder costs, I will also look at the before and after costs for both powders when the cost of the OP Wad is added.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It works out to $322.00 for GOEX in a 25 pound lot. Swiss is $562.00 for the same amount. That extra $ 240.00 would come in handy--maybe a swamped Rice or Getz barrel or a nice stock blank or a few tanks of gas...

 

[paulvallandigham]

Wow! Thanks for that information. I had not thought to price it by the case! My brother initially bought just 3 lbs. of Swiss powder when he was at friendship a couple of years ago. I didn't recall what he paid, but he was just buying enough to try it out with his .40, and .42 caliber guns.

Using the Case price, the difference in cost is much clearer. We can buy a lot of OP wads, pay for the Graf& Sons powder screening drum, and a whole lot of Goex FFFg to boot. Thank you for the current pricing. :hatsoff:

 

[laufer]

does anybody mix ffg and fffg? i was at the range yesterday and that is what a guy shoots, he claims it shoots same as fffg with a little less recoil, and not the load is lighter than with ffg.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Not for accuracy. If you put those mixes on a chronograph, and compare them to shooting just one or the other Granular size of powder, rather than mixing the two, you find the velocities all over the place. Much Wider SDV when you mix the two.

Look, if there was something that would make shooting BP rifles easier, or more accurate, don't you think it would have been discovered in the past 500 years that people have been shooting Black Powder guns????? What our sport involves today is re-inventing the wheel in many ways. Our forefathers didn't write a lot of things they did down. Either they didn't know how to write, or didn't think it was important to write about something that every one else already knew, and did.

Today, compared to 20 years ago, we have accurate, inexpensive chronographs available to all shooters, and you can check out these kinds of " theories " yourself very easily. If you need to learn how to test an issue, come on this forum, and someone will tell you how to do it right. That is one of the true benefits of this forum- the accumulated technical knowledge, along with a vast array of experiences, all over the world, using BP rifles, pistols, and smoothies for hunting and target shooting, that our members share, freely. :hatsoff:

 

[laufer]

i was told when i’ve started never to mix different granulation if i want any consistency, and i’ve never have. that is what surprised me, as i know this gentlemen from the range for a few years and he is a good shot.
i do appreciate your extremely valuable advises and technical/ empirical contributions and thank you for that. :hatsoff:

 

[jrozelle]

Why would a fella do a silly thing like that, when Jack'll put 25 lbs. on your door step for only $290.00??????????? It's your money.

 

[Mike 56]

I been shooting FF Goex and Pyrodex Select Last Saturday i ran out and tried FFF Schetzen i have been shooting in cap and ball revolvers i can't believe how good the Schuetzen shot in my CVA Bobcat. The guy i buy powder from sells Goex and Schuetzen powder for 16.00 a pound i just have to drive 45 minutes to buy it.

Mike