Limits of Hard Cast Roundball when hunting

[Nuthatch]

Here in CA, we have to use lead-free projectiles when hunting. This includes in traditional muzzleloaders. I've heard it all so leave your criticisms of CA aside for this post -- warranted or not.

Bismuth alloy is just a hard roundball. They shoot and behave like hard cast lead where it's all penetration with no expansion. My question is who uses hard cast ball when hunting and how should I think of them relative to caliber? I've only taken a deer and a javelina with a roundball -- both were very clean kills with great penetration. Granted, my shot placement was good so just about anything would have done the job just as well.

But is that .480 ball ample for taking bigger or heavier things like larger pigs, elk and bear? I have zero questions about penetration on these -- they'll punch through darned near anything & keep going. But with the lack of expansion, is it more like shooting a .45 or a .40 -- adequate but not ideal? I'm curious to get the input of those who have hunted big game with hardcast lead and especially those who have used hard cast conicals or round ball for things like elk, larger bears or pigs.

I could opt for a conical but my (limited) experience with lead-free conicals leaves me unimpressed -- either all penetration with no expansion when shooting past about 50 yards or all expansion with limited penetration when it's up-close. This is assuming 1:48 twist driven at 1500-1600 fps.

 

[Sam squanch]

We need more research into this topic. I believe sooner or later, lead will be banned to even own someday. A back door approach to gun control and banning hunting all in one…

 

[64Springer]

There's a lot of information out there on hard cast bullets. Much harder than Lyman #2. Which is 90 lead, 5 Tin and 5 Antimony.

They're used for dangerous game. Like face eating bears. They're used in both big bore handguns and big bore rifles. For the ultimate in penetration. To punch through tough skin and fatty tissue.

As the OP alluded to, shot placement is everything.

If hard cast projectiles work in modern Unmens, they'll certainly work in muzzleloaders. Velocity is velocity and a lung shot is a lung shot. Regardless of projectile material.

Keep in mind that a conical won't work because the bullet is too hard to start it into the rifling. This leaves you with a PRB.

 

[stikshooter]

There's a lot of information out there on hard cast bullets. Much harder than Lyman #2. Which is 90 lead, 5 Tin and 5 Antimony.

They're used for dangerous game. Like face eating bears. They're used in both big bore handguns and big bore rifles. For the ultimate in penetration. To punch through tough skin and fatty tissue.

As the OP alluded to, shot placement is everything.

If hard cast projectiles work in modern Unmens, they'll certainly work in muzzleloaders. Velocity is velocity and a lung shot is a lung shot. Regardless of projectile material.

Keep in mind that a conical won't work because the bullet is too hard to start it into the rifling. This leaves you with a PRB.

And maybe a ruined barrel , I asked Pedersoli about lead subs and he said the barrels are chromed but said use only the cylinder bore and a plastic shot gun wad and that sounds iffy to me/Ed

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I hope I don't wind up in hot water for mentioning this but jacketed sabot bullets can be quite accurate and provide excellent expansion on game.

 

[Stykbow]

No first hand experience, but I gotta think if you blow a 50 cal hole thru the lungs or heart you won’t have a problem. My mind is working this over and I wonder if you could make a hollow point ball? There isn’t anything new under the Sun so someone has to have tried this, but I don’t know if it would aid in giving some expansion with a hardened ball. That is assuming it would fly worth a crap.

 

[necchi]

Granted, my shot placement was good so just about anything would have done the job just as well.

That's the key, everything else is relative.
If all I wanted to do was "harvest game",, by extending my range or increasing terminal ballistics,, I wouldn't use full traditional projectiles within your ML Cali regs,, you'll have to push it into what's UN-mentionable here,
Amazing progress in CF with Copper,,

 

[Nuthatch]

No first hand experience, but I gotta think if you blow a 50 cal hole thru the lungs or heart you won’t have a problem. My mind is working this over and I wonder if you could make a hollow point ball? There isn’t anything new under the Sun so someone has to have tried this, but I don’t know if it would aid in giving some expansion with a hardened ball. That is assuming it would fly worth a manure.

It wouldn't do much good. Bismuth will shatter before it will expand. There's tungsten/iron (ITX) but that would probably just dull the drill bit.

 

[Nuthatch]

I hope I don't wind up in hot water for mentioning this but jacketed sabot bullets can be quite accurate and provide excellent expansion on game.

Yea, I'm pretty sure that's off topic. Wouldn't matter though. 1:48 twist is as fast as my rifles get & those newfangled things are meant for much faster rates as I understand them.

 

[HSmithTX]

I've shot deer and an elk (one) with hardcast lead bullets in unmentionable handguns. Killing power is there but be prepared for long blood trails and blood trails that start and stop if you shoot traditional shot placement in heart and lungs. A double lung hit can easily go 200 yards and may not bleed much if at all, the small entrance and small exit can get covered by the hide and prevent leakage. If it were me I would be looking for something with a wide flat nose if I had to shoot hardcast in a muzzleloader. The wound channel is a good bit wider and they flat kill better. Blood trails are comparable but from what I have seen a good bit to a lot shorter.

 

[Mad Professor]

How about a paper patch all copper bullet? They expand like hell with right point, and can can have a high BC.

Loading might be hell?

Mods, if this too modern, scratch this post. I'm just floating an idea.

 

[Mad Professor]

I remember wayback. "Roundball" was experimenting with marbles. Not greatest for hunting but he shot them like a PRB.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

I'm in California as well. I have killed two pigs with .53 patched ITX non-lead balls and wounded a third, which wasn't good, on top of 100 grains of FFFG in a Pedersoli Jaeger. I didn't recover the last pig so I may not have placed the shot well: it certainly went down hard, then got up and ran. Probably my fault. Cringe...then a friend gave me a The Rifle Shoppe Baker Rifle in .62 so I'm hunting with ITX with that now. I can't find ITX to buy so I'm interested in anything you come up with as a replacement. I look forward to your insights.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Yea, I'm pretty sure that's off topic. Wouldn't matter though. 1:48 twist is as fast as my rifles get & those newfangled things are meant for much faster rates as I understand them.

They were originally developed for use in T/C Hawkens in the early '80's as I remember.

 

[BS]

I use this for a fast second shot. It will also work for the first shot with hardened balls.

https://rjrenner.blogspot.com/p/tapered-paper-cartridges.html

 

[Edm]

They were originally developed for use in T/C Hawkens in the early '80's as I remember.

Before I smartened up when I was a teen, in the 90s I tried them in mine and they flew straight. I am strictly a roundball user since 1995.

 

[flntlokr]

Here in CA, we have to use lead-free projectiles when hunting. This includes in traditional muzzleloaders. I've heard it all so leave your criticisms of CA aside for this post -- warranted or not.

Bismuth alloy is just a hard roundball. They shoot and behave like hard cast lead where it's all penetration with no expansion. My question is who uses hard cast ball when hunting and how should I think of them relative to caliber? I've only taken a deer and a javelina with a roundball -- both were very clean kills with great penetration. Granted, my shot placement was good so just about anything would have done the job just as well.

But is that .480 ball ample for taking bigger or heavier things like larger pigs, elk and bear? I have zero questions about penetration on these -- they'll punch through darned near anything & keep going. But with the lack of expansion, is it more like shooting a .45 or a .40 -- adequate but not ideal? I'm curious to get the input of those who have hunted big game with hardcast lead and especially those who have used hard cast conicals or round ball for things like elk, larger bears or pigs.

I could opt for a conical but my (limited) experience with lead-free conicals leaves me unimpressed -- either all penetration with no expansion when shooting past about 50 yards or all expansion with limited penetration when it's up-close. This is assuming 1:48 twist driven at 1500-1600 fps.

I have taken several black bears using reclaimed pistol bullet lead in my 45-70 unmentionable high wall. Always put Mr Bruin down with single shots; never recovered a bullet, so I have no idea regarding expansion etc. I also took time to work out some loads for my .50 Hawken using the same bullets with patches; never took it hunting, but based on how those big bullets hit steel, they would have worked ok.

 

[SDSmlf]

I remember wayback. "Roundball" was experimenting with marbles. Not greatest for hunting but he shot them like a PRB.

How about a link to Roundball’s posts testing marbles? Remember him testing brass roundballs. Non-Lead projectiles for hunting

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Marbles shatter, dont ask how I know.

I would never shoot stuff out of my hand built flintlock to make some commie that knows NOTHING about firearms.

Just like I will not wear orange. Was shot at when I did. No one has seen me in several decades.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Here in CA, we have to use lead-free projectiles when hunting. This includes in traditional muzzleloaders. I've heard it all so leave your criticisms of CA aside for this post -- warranted or not.

Bismuth alloy is just a hard roundball. They shoot and behave like hard cast lead where it's all penetration with no expansion. My question is who uses hard cast ball when hunting and how should I think of them relative to caliber? I've only taken a deer and a javelina with a roundball -- both were very clean kills with great penetration. Granted, my shot placement was good so just about anything would have done the job just as well.

But is that .480 ball ample for taking bigger or heavier things like larger pigs, elk and bear? I have zero questions about penetration on these -- they'll punch through darned near anything & keep going. But with the lack of expansion, is it more like shooting a .45 or a .40 -- adequate but not ideal? I'm curious to get the input of those who have hunted big game with hardcast lead and especially those who have used hard cast conicals or round ball for things like elk, larger bears or pigs.

I could opt for a conical but my (limited) experience with lead-free conicals leaves me unimpressed -- either all penetration with no expansion when shooting past about 50 yards or all expansion with limited penetration when it's up-close. This is assuming 1:48 twist driven at 1500-1600 fps.

I'm confused, are you shooting 100% Bismuth, which isn't an alloy, or are you shooting something like a Bismuth/Tin Alloy? Rotometals sells Bismuth/Tin alloy in a 58/42 Bismuth/Tin, 55.5/44.5 Bismuth/Tin, and 40/60 Bismuth/Tin ratios.

The simple answer to your question would be to take a scale and weigh the ball that you're using. Compare it's weight to a known quantity, such as an all lead round ball of similar diameter. Then decide. For example, a .440 lead round ball is about 128 grains, but probably not what you want on an elk or bear. A .490 round ball weighs about 177 grains and would work on Elk and Bear... so where does your ball fall between those two weights? You really can't count on lead round ball deforming a significant amount, as the sphere sheds velocity so very fast in flight. A lighter projectile will start out faster than the all lead ball, BUT it will also slow down inside the animal faster, due to less mass than the all lead ball, but nearly the same friction. So as you have found, worry on shot placement, and original diameter.

LD