Little Wheelguns

[CaptainKirk]

Much has been written about Wild Bill and his Navy Colts, many have questioned as to why he would tote Navy Colts when newer, more conventional arms were available, and larger, at that.
I may have an inkling...
Yesterday I was at my local indoor range creating empty .44 mag cases, when it occurred to me that part of my trouble producing small, tightly-knit groups without using both hands was (duh!) the recoil.
And then, how in the case of two armed men facing themselves from across a room flinging lead at each other, the one with the smaller, lighter, and more manageable revolver might have a much better chance of hitting his opponent than Big Joe with his Thunder Stick? (Isn't this what the police have been trying to teach for years?)
Holding a firearm straight out, Weaver-style, to mange accuracy and recoil, presents a full-body target. Wild Bill, with his "pop-guns", could turn sideways, one arm outstretched, and probably thread a needle with it.
Interesting....am I on to something here, or merely dreaming?

 

[Zonie]

You may have a good thought there but as you know, even the .45 cal cap and ball pistols don't really kick very much.
The .45 Colt on the other hand does and Wild Bill might have liked the reduced kick of the .36.

Then it might not have anything to do with recoil.
There's no denying that Wild Bill perfected his shooting with the 1851 Navys and as good of a shot as he was with them I can almost see him saying, "Why change things? He won't be any deader!" :grin:

My father was an "instinct shooter" with a pistol and he was so familiar with it that he never "aimed". He just "thought" and that pistol would drill whatever he was wanting to hit dead center.

I suspect Wild Bill was that way too.

 

[Kevin Makel]

I have often wondered the same thing. Looking at the timeline, Wild Bill was killed in 1876, the last cap and ball Colts were made in 1872. The cartridge Colts, although started in 1872 could not have as widespread as we're always lead to beleive. There was clearly a transition period where cap and ball revolvers and conversions were still in wide use. Wild Bill was in this period. There is also the the problem of ammo availability, it must have been easier to get powder, caps,and lead balls. This would have been important to Wild Bill, as he test fired his revolvers every day. Factory ammo may have been hard to get and expensive for a new gun like the Colt 1873 during this time. Plus Colt had the Army contracts to fill.

Had Wild Bill lived a few years longer, he surely would have transitioned to a cartridge gun like the Colt or S&W. For me Wild Bills' murder marked the end of the cap and ball era. So I think that contrary to lore, legend, TV and Hollywood, the cap and ball revolver soldiered on a lot longer that people think.

 

[DanChamberlain]

Cap

Anyone who's spent quality trigger time with the .36 Navy will be able to tell you the gun "points" like a laser! Shooting schools didn't exist. Men learned to shoot by trial and error. The Navy was a natural pointer.

Also, the round ball has a much better profile for defense than anything made today short of a hollow point. It's far better than today's ball ammo. The only thing better offered today would be a truncated cone.

Dan

 

[poordevil]

I think you nailed it.

When Teddy Roosevelt (who knew guns and shooting) was Commissioner of Police in NYC he had issued to all the cops Colt .32 revolvers. The reason...so the cops could hit what they were shooting at.

P

 

[CoyoteJoe]

The .45 Colt revolver was introduce only three years before Hickok's death and for the first few years almost all of Colt's production went to the government, it's quite possible Hickok never even saw a Colt .45.
Much has been made of his preference for the Navy Colt but in many photos of Hickok he makes no show of firearms at all. I read that as marshal of Hays Kansas he only carried a pair of breech loading single shot derringers, one in each side pocket of his frock coat.
As to carrying a pair of Navies butt first under a shash I have to call :bull: Just try carrying a pair of revolvers that way and it won't take two minutes to realize it is totally impractical and dangerous. That famous photo was staged by the photographer and they are butt first because the photographer was standing in front of Hickok when he stuck them under the belt. You'll notice there is also a bare bladed butcher knife pointing directly at his manhood. I don't for a second believe he actually walked around like that.

 

[Norinco]

My guess is that the first six (or rather, five) shots should be able to solve any problem you'd have. If you needed more than six shots, you better practice more. For the first six shots there simply was little advantage of having a cartridge gun (other than things like cap jams of course).

Does anyone know how prevalent the practice of cutting down barrels on cap/ball revolvers was? I see pictures of original Colt Armies and Navies with snub barrels a good bit. I also heard somewhere the estimated survival rate for Colt's is 2-3%. Might that be due to the fact that people cut the barrels down to a size that made more sense for a civilian and then used them until they could be used no longer?

 

[Geraldo]

I think there could be several reasons.

First, people kept things forever. In the 1970s my great-grandfather's farm was like a museum. All hand tools were very old. The newest tractor was from before WWII. There wasn't a rush to get the "newest, greatest". People used muzzleloaders for decades after the advent of cartridges.

Second, Wild Bill got around, so he had certainly seen cartridge pistolas, but maybe they just didn't feel all that good to him. My 1860 Army feels a lot better than my Ruger Blackhawk, so I could see him not jumping on the new-fangled bandwagon.

Third, for a while, cartridges had to be difficult to come by in certain areas. We think our cartridge selection is big, but there was .44 WCF, .44 Colt, .44 Russian, .44 MH, and .44 RF just to name some .44s. He might have thought he was better off buying powder and caps and casting RB than trying to find a specific cartridge.

 

[CaptainKirk]

True.
We think of reloading as a simple practice(Well, I do, anyway) but without proper equipment and the time/place to do it, it might seem downright difficult. (Imagine trying to lug a sturdy bench around on horseback!) Whereas, with C&B, you could load up sitting on a windfall tree or horseback, if necessary. No assembly required.
Watching many of the westerns I love, it seems ridiculous (and somewhat unlikely) that desperadoes would rain lead around like nobody's business when I'm sure cartridges were not all that easy to come by.

 

[bubba15301]

I think there could be several reasons.

First, people kept things forever. In the 1970s my great-grandfather's farm was like a museum. All hand tools were very old. The newest tractor was from before WWII. There wasn't a rush to get the "newest, greatest". People used muzzleloaders for decades after the advent of cartridges.

Second, Wild Bill got around, so he had certainly seen cartridge pistolas, but maybe they just didn't feel all that good to him. My 1860 Army feels a lot better than my Ruger Blackhawk, so I could see him not jumping on the new-fangled bandwagon.

Third, for a while, cartridges had to be difficult to come by in certain areas. We think our cartridge selection is big, but there was .44 WCF, .44 Colt, .44 Russian, .44 MH, and .44 RF just to name some .44s. He might have thought he was better off buying powder and caps and casting RB than trying to find a specific cartridge.

cost was an issue as well. cap nand ball pistol $7.50- colt saa $25.00- big difference

 

[CaptainKirk]

I've never fired a .45LC so I can't compare it to a .44 C&B. But I have fired my .44M Super Blackhawk many, many times, and there is no comparison between it and my .C&B's in terms of recoil, muzzle rise, muzzle flash and wrist torque. The Navy has even less yet.
Without the rapid pace of technology change we have thrust down our throats every day, I doubt many who would stake their life daily on their side-irons would be chafing at the bit to swap for an unknown 'latest & greatest'.
You become comfortable with what you were raised with and are familiar.

 

[Greg Hardy]

About twenty-five years ago, a friend and I were tromping around in the Mojave. Twice, in less than an hour, I spotted lizards on the rocks abour fifteen yards off. I drew and fired my Lyman '51 Navy and popped both of them, one shot each. Suffice to say, I was as shocked as my compadre was. The pistol just points so natural, you don't really have to even think about it. Oh, yeah, that is also where I got my nickname,'Lizard'

 

[kwilfong]

Just got a '51 Navy & it does seem to point nicely. I'm anxious to shoot it more.

 

[himem777]

Good Point! ouch :shocked2:

 

[mazo kid]

...(Imagine trying to lug a sturdy bench around on horseback!) Whereas, with C&B, you could load up sitting on a windfall tree or horseback, if necessary. No assembly required.

Well, part of what you are saying is very true. However, the first reloading tools were the tong tools...Ideal, Winchester, etc. They didn't need sturdy reloading benches as the cartridges were reloaded using hand tools. I think the movie "The Last Hunt" or something like that, showed the buffalo hunters sitting around the campfire and reloading their cartridges using the tong tools and casting bullets over the coals. Probably one of the most realistic sequences relating to reloading cartridges during that time period.

 

[CaptainKirk]

But you still need the basics. Brass needs to be resized or replaced with new. Primers punched and new ones installed. Bullets crimped.
I think it would be much less of a PITA to just do the C&B thing.

 

[CaptainKirk]

And speaking of little wheelguns......
One of our esteemed Wheelgun Klub members was nice enough to parley with me for one of his 'pistolitos'...a Baby Dragoon (or BabyDragon, as I like to refer to it). I'll be posting some 'before', and 'after' pix (after I work my mojo on it). That makes two fine scores from this great forum since Christmas! (Both Dragoons!)I may be broke, but I'm sure happy! :grin:

 

[CaptainKirk]

OK; so I promised......

Baby Dragoon (Thanks, Kevin!)

Another shot:

Quite a handful:

Baby & Big Daddy:

Haven't shot it yet (obviously), next job is to disassemble and go thru the innards (just because)
Sure is cute, though....

 

[himem777]

It's so cute.

 

[brubincam]

-----ooochy gooochy gooo----- :idunno: