Loading a .58 Scottish Highland Flintlock Pistol

[Grumpa]

I have no experience with BP smoothbores. Well, I have had for years a repro .58 Scottish Highlander pistol, brass stocked, one of those "end of the age" throwbacks - not like the beautiful Pitcairn pistols. Tried it once, years ago, with PRB, couldn't hit a thing. Have used it mostly on New Year's Eve, with lots of powder and a newsprint wad.

Am wanting to try it again. Is PRB the way to go, or should I use over powder wads, over ball wads, tow,????

The stock is too small and short for any kind of comfortable hold. I always thought it would make a better club than sidearm.

Just curious.

 

[Zonie]

Using it as a club after it is shot is exactly what it was designed for.

IMO, don't go to any expense like buying a bunch of wads. Just shoot a patched ball and have fun.

With a smoothbore, the ball/patch combination doesn't have to be very tight. Just enough to hold the ball in place.

I also wouldn't get carried away with the powder loads either. Anything from 20-30 grains will be enough for killin' a punkin or a can.

 

[bpd303]

hotoSmile:

 

[Grumpa]

Thanks, Zonie, that's about what I figured, on all counts.

 

[Grumpa]

When I figure out how to do the photo thing, I'll post some pics of some great, interesting guns.
This one doesn't qualify on either score.

There is a pic in the "Classified Ads - Firearms Wanted" of the same type, except mine didn't come with the ball/vent pick sticking out the bottom of the grip.

 

[Grumpa]

I remember back when I was in college, the Robert Abels catalogue had beautiful scroll butt Highland pistols for about $200. Of course, that was a lot of money then.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Zonie's right on this one...the pistols were carried till the clansmen were nearly on their enemy then it was shoot, toss it at the other fellow's noggin, draw broadswords and get with the program! No big deal with these pistols, patched ballor a bit of tow above and below ball and have fun. Trying for accuracy with the grip design will be like milking a horse!

 

[Tinker2]

I have not shot mine for a while but my PRB load is 25 grains of 2F with a patched round ball

I did shoot a lot of shot in it too

Have fun



William Alexander

 

[rickystl]

I shoot my .50 caliber with a .480 ball and a .010 patch using 30 grains of either FFG or FFG. It works on man sized paper targets at 7-10 yards. But I believe that's all they were designed for as mentioned above. So don't expect much accuracy. These were short range, personal protection type pistols. But they are fun to shoot! Good luck with yours. Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[MacRob46]

Zonie's right on this one...the pistols were carried till the clansmen were nearly on their enemy then it was shoot, toss it at the other fellow's noggin, draw broadswords and get with the program! No big deal with these pistols, patched ballor a bit of tow above and below ball and have fun. Trying for accuracy with the grip design will be like milking a horse!

I agree with your statement regarding accuracy but completely disagree with the one about the throwing of pistols. How that got started I am not certain, although many years ago Muzzle Loader printed an article stating that Highlanders threw their pistols at their opponents after firing them. There is absolutely NO historical evidence of that being used as a tactic and makes no sense. The Highland dag was a defensive weapon and to fire then throw it at your enemy was leaving you without a firearm should the Highland Charge go badly. This does not take into account the probability of losing your flint or damaging the pistol by throwing it or the very real possibility of losing it. These things were expensive and many were finely made and engraved - not something a relatively impecunious Highlander would want to throw away. Even the mechanics of doing so are questionable. To accomplish this the warrior would have to carry his pistol(s) fully cocked on a dead run across a considerable distance to reach pistol range from the enemy. This would undoubtedly result in accidental discharges. The ideal front rank Highlander - there were few of those of course - would carry a musket or fowler, one or two pistols, a dirk, broadsword and shield. That was quite a load and having carried all that myself, I can assure that doing so on a dead run toward a point on a battlefield is difficult and I am much larger than the average Highlander in the age when this was a battle tactic. All contemporary descriptions of the Highland Charge state that at musket shot range they halted and those with long arms fired them toward the enemy then drew sword and dirk, covered themselves with their targes and went in for close quarters sword play. There are zero references to throwing of handguns in that literature. Certainly the all metal pistol, when empty, could be used as a bludgeon and was but that had nothing to do with the shape of the grip or the fact that these guns were made of metal.

 

[Many Klatch]

I have seen pictures of earlier Highland Pistols that were made with wooden stocks. Because of the shape of the pistol and the narrowness of the wood they were very fragile. No wonder they went to an all steel frame. As much as they must have cost to produce, I can't see throwing either wood or steel pistol. Sounds like a museum manufactured factoid.

I was visiting the Alamo and heard a docent tell the crowd that the Mexican Army was armed with Brown Bess's. They couldn't shoot them accurately because the Bess recoil tended to break collar bones.

 

[MacRob46]

Scottish pistols from very early times did have stocks made of walnut and Brazilwood. Some smiths later used rosewood but on a limited basis. The all-metal pistol was made during the same time frame and in the late 17th c. the manufacture of pistols with wooden stocks appears to have ended. I would not characterize the earlier wooden stock versions as fragile. The makers left enough wood to make them sturdy and large caliber bores were the norm so they had to be fairly stout. The docent at the Alamo was clearly wrong, of course, and I assume you are pointing out how misinformation enters the lore.

 

[Many Klatch]

The docent at the Alamo was clearly wrong, of course, and I assume you are pointing out how misinformation enters the lore.

Yeah, I didn't feel that they would not appreciate me telling them that I shot a Bess regularly and that it kicks no worse than a straight stocked 12 ga modern shotgun.

Sorry about going off topic.

 

[MacRob46]

I remember back when I was in college, the Robert Abels catalogue had beautiful scroll butt Highland pistols for about $200. Of course, that was a lot of money then.

I have not seen that catalog of course but I suspect that the pistol you mention may have been a Victorian "costume pistol" rather than an 18th c. Highland pistol. When the UK went wild over the previously despised and feared Highlander back in the 1820s, various makers rushed to turn out all sorts of copies of original weaponry for consumption by the many "pseudo" Highlanders of the Victorian age. These pistols looked pretty good and could be fired but in truth it was, in most cases, quite easy to tell that they were not originals since the construction, architecture and decoration were not up to what the old smiths of Doune, Glasgow and elsewhere turned out. These pistols are common in the antique market these days and can bring a couple of thousand or so but those made just a few years post-Culloden and further back have always brought considerably more that $200 even in bygone years. A friend of mine had a beautiful lemon-butt pistol with a brass stock and dated from the early 17th c.(probably made later but the fence on the snaphaunce lock was marked 1627)which he sold a few years back for $16,000. The production during the "Highland Craze" can make it a little difficult to identify genuine old Highland weapons over Victoria copies but a knowledgeable antique dealer can usually separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[MacRob46]

I have no experience with BP smoothbores. Well, I have had for years a repro .58 Scottish Highlander pistol, brass stocked, one of those "end of the age" throwbacks - not like the beautiful Pitcairn pistols. Tried it once, years ago, with PRB, couldn't hit a thing. Have used it mostly on New Year's Eve, with lots of powder and a newsprint wad.

Am wanting to try it again. Is PRB the way to go, or should I use over powder wads, over ball wads, tow,????

The stock is too small and short for any kind of comfortable hold. I always thought it would make a better club than sidearm.

Just curious.

Light charge with a fairly loose fitting bullet thickly patched. Even with careful loading this is a 10 foot range shooter. Mine bucks mightily in the hand and has a very mushy lock. The copy you have and I have is of an English manufactured pistol issued to enlisted men of the Highland Regiments. The Highland lock and all metal construction of these pistols were the only characteristics retained from the original Highland Dags of the pre-Culloden era.

 

[Grumpa]

Right, on all points. I suspect the story about throwing them at the enemy is an old joke told so often it entered the tradition. I have to admit I pretty much felt that way after the first few times I shot it.

And thanks for the response today. My laptop had died, and I had forgotten about this post. Just got my refurbished laptop back Friday. (Fortunately, Dell technicians were able to recover all my "data".) If I can get to the range for a few hours this week, I may get to try the Highlander out. Maybe 30 years or so will have improved my shooting...I know I can't throw the thing as well as I would have then. :wink:

 

[Zonie]

I think if I was using one of these Scottish Highland pistols back in the day, I would save it for the personal "close up" work by firing it into the foe.

After the shot, flipping it end for end I would end up with a hell of a good whompin' club, usually with some rams horns on the bottom to help me get thru the thick head of my antagonist and help him see my stance on the issue.

 

[Grumpa]

I can readily see this in a small encounter with one or two opponents. (Mine is the late style, no ram's horn scroll, but thick brass "fishtail" to suitable indent the skull).
On the battlefield, I would feel more comfortable with targe, dirk and broadsword. :thumbsup:

 

[pargent]

Go easy on the powder and use a second hand ball :wink:

 

[MacRob46]

Right, on all points. I suspect the story about throwing them at the enemy is an old joke told so often it entered the tradition. I have to admit I pretty much felt that way after the first few times I shot it.

My best friend built a T. Campbell pre-Culloden pistol from a Coach Harness Kit about 35 years ago. These were available for a very short time. The components were cast from an original and Don told me - he is an excellent gun builder and technician - that it was one of the hardest things he had ever done. I have fired it and it is just an inaccurate, at least when I shot it, as the Waters pistol which started the thread. However, it looks great! I will try to post a photo of it. I should add that the replica of the Waters pistol is very close to the original in terms of dimensions and that the lock, as mentioned elsewhere, is an actual "Highland" lock with the horizontal sear. No other replica out today has that feature.