loading prb with cleaning jag

[Swampman]

Several shooters have now posted findings similar to mine (and they have in the past on the same subject.)

If you wish to risk the safety of your fellow shooters, that is up to you. If I'm the range safety officer, you'll be leaving the range or changing the way you load.

I don't think we need more bad PR by generating horror stories for the local newspaper.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I don't understand the hostility here. Mark Lewis has brought up a point of potential danger of which some folks may be unaware. It may not apply to you or anyone you know but it is something of which a person should be aware. If we always paid proper attention to loading then there would be no such thing as a dry-ball would there? I thank you Mark for raising a good point.

 

[bwhoffman]

I feel that a "This happened to me" and a "This works for me", isnt posted as a gospel,cure-all, gotta do it this way thing.
Every one's milage and experiences and results will vary.

State our facts, findings and experiences, Identify that we can agree to disagree and move on!


I for one, was made aware of a potential issue that could happen to me or someone near me and will digest that info.
mental note made, moving forward....

 

[roundball]

No hostility at all Joe...just firmly stated facts...injecting reality to bring balance to a thread that continues to have its fire stoked with the claim that cleaning jags are dangerous and should not be used, and all on the basis of a very implausible, 3rd hand account of a story someone heard. Conversely, to get through the fog its sometimes necessary to state the facts so that anyone can understand them...like this:

The claim that cleaning jags are very dangerous and therefore should not be used is preposterous.

 

[Uncle Mike]

Hi as a novice I hate to chime in(but will any way) but after I load I always check my depth with my ramrod.That's why I have a witness mark on my ramrod.If my ball was accidently pulled up I would know it.I learned this by reading this forum. :surrender: Regards,Mike

 

[Swampman]

Nobody said anything about cleaning jags being dangerous. Someone else may have related a 3rd hand account. I didn't.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mark: I Have never understood what your personal problem is. You seem to never be able to rethink a situation and admit you might be wrong about how something did or did not happen.

If you think you can pull a ball all the way back out of a barrel by its patch catching on your cleaning jag, without knowing it, then its something that should be easily repeatable with your jag. It should not be a ONCE ONLY EVER thing that happened to you, or anyone.

I-- and I suspect many others here-- have as many years of experience loading oversized patches with jags on our Ramrods, or Range rods, as you may have. I have tried to " Hook " a patch with a jag, and a lot of other things, over the years, especially when someone has " dry-balled " a PRB. I can't do it.

I have seen people using the wrong jag- a guy with an old Numerich arms barrel in .44 caliber, trying to use a .45 caliber jag, that was just too tight, and he was having all kinds of trouble getting his ramrod down and out of that barrel, before we stopped him, and one of the members had a micrometer in his truck that we used to measure the head of his jag to tell him he had the WRONG jag on his rod.

And, I have been, and seen many other shooters distracted by any number of things, but mostly people talking to us, where we have started the ball in the muzzle, and then forgotten to run the ball down on the barrel. Because much of memory is based on habits, it scared me that I might be losing my mind, because I could not remember, NOT running the ball down the barrel and would have sworn I did, if anyone asked.

What I learned from the experience was not only to mark my rod, but I will NOT LET People talk to me while I am loading the PRB down the barrel. If someone has tried to talk to me, I NOW, as a regular Habit, leave my rod in the barrel, while I turn to them to answer their question. This tells me where I stopped in my loading process. The mark on my rod tells me that the ball is seated on the powder, so I know there is powder under the PRB.

Now, Mark, if you want to go around believing that you lifted a seated Patched Round Ball back up the length of your barrel because part of the patch caught on your cleaning jag, so that it was at the muzzle when you observed the ball next, AND YOU DIDN'T NOTICE the resistance on your Ramrod as you withdrew it out of the barrel, well--that is your right.

But, I reserve my right to politely disagree with your rendition of those facts, and to challenge you to prove it happened by doing it again before witnesses. I am not calling you a LIAR. I do think you are honestly mistaken about your facts, and just have believed, sincerely, in what you have said. If you were a range officer and tried to throw me off the range because I left my cleaning jag on my rod while loading my PRB, I would be escorting YOU off the range, followed by a mob of other angry shooters. So, Please stop the silly threats.

I believe that Round Ball's questioning your facts was and is appropriate. That is why I agreed with him. I think his reading of the evidence you state is far more accurate than what you say happened. He's not calling you a liar, and neither am I. I think we both feel you are mistaken about what happened, and that is all.

Now, I gave you the measurements of both of my jags for my .50 caliber rifle. I did so to point out the difference, and I mentioned that I need to take my own advice and reduce the diameter of the first two rings on the jag that is attached to my hickory ramrod, because it does make cleaning the breech of the barrel with that jag a bit Sticky to do. There are jags made that are too large for the barrel they are being asked to clean, or load.

If you compare the measurements of that jag, with my Range Rod, jag, which I use for both cleaning and loading, I think you, and everyone else can see why I am having problems with the hickory rod jag. Neither jag has ever caught a patch and pulled my ball back up the barrel. I have used muzzle cut patches, pre-cut patches, and square patches with both jags.

All I am asking is that you back your statements up with some facts that others here can use to make up their own mind. If you don't have the ramrod and jag you are talking about, say so. If you do, then measure them, and post your measurments, with the caliber of your barrel, and the thickness of the patch you claim was pulling your ball back out the barrel. The, maybe the rest of us can better relate YOUR experience to our own.

 

[Swampman]

I wasn't the one that had the obstructed bore occur. It was another fellow shooting next to me. I don't have the cleaning jag so I can't measure it. I saw it happen.

The size of the jag isn't relevent.

An inanimate object isn't dangerous. Using an inanimate object for something it isn't designed for can be. We must decide what risk we are willing to accept. Putting nearby shooters at risk without their knowledge seems pretty selfish and inconsiderate. Of course being inconsiderate seems to be the norm nowdays.

Being blind or maimed "only once and forever" because you just must do something that's totally unnecessary, seems foolish.

 

[worker11811]

I take it at face value that you actually saw a patch and ball get pulled back up the barrel by a cleaning jag.

I'll even listen to your warnings about using a cleaning jag to load. Given the severity of the accident that might happen if the patch ever did pull the ball back up the barrel, I don't know anybody who wouldn't at least LISTEN to what you say.

However, I think a warning is sufficient. You could even remind people to check and double check their guns before they fire.

But, in the end, my experience tells me that people who become more and more adamant about their opinions when they are challenged are usually not telling me the whole story and they are just standing on previous statements without proof. This may or may not be the case with your statement but, as I said at the top of this message, I take you at face value.

I don't understand why you just don't say, "Listen to me! You need to double check and TRIPLE check your load if you insist upon doing this!"

Then, again, a good shooter should ALREADY be double checking his work. Shouldn't he?

:v

 

[Swampman]

If you are going to knowingly do something dangerous, why would you double or tripple check?

"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid."

John Wayne

My last post on the subject.

 

[Dphar]

If you are going to knowingly do something dangerous, why would you double or tripple check?

Being called a liar never rest easy with me. How about you?

Hi Mark
As I said you can't win something like this unless someone blows a gap in their barrel.

Example:
A well known figure in breechloading firearms magazines and BPCR shooting once told a VERY big name in "modern guns" that he should not shoot smokeless pistol powder in his Trapdoor Springfield since it was dangerous and likely to "detonate" due to the small amount of powder in a big cartridge case (its a common way modern firearms are destroyed). But being a big name in reloading and having used the load for 20+ years with no problems he ignored the warning. He is now short some fingers on one hand since his low loading density charge of smokeless WAS dangerous and DID malfunction as he had been told it would and blew the barrel. So now he is maimed and the TD is junk.
But he knew better...

You are dealing with the same thing here. People have done this for years and don't want to hear that their pet method of doing things might be dangerous. Since THEY do this it CAN'T be a silly or dangerous since they don't do silly or dangerous stuff.
As previously stated. I taper my rods so they come out easy and don't require a handle to get them out of the gun. I use the large end to push on to seat the ball with uniform pressure and the small end on the ball. Requires less rod turning this way.

Dan

 

[worker11811]

If you are going to knowingly do something dangerous, why would you double or tripple check?

If it is only dangerous when the ball isn't seated firmly against the powder AND you double check to be sure that the ball IS seated against the powder then your statement is fallacious.

It doesn't matter HOW you load the gun. (rhetorically speaking.) I don't care if you use a regular ramrod, a rod with a cleaning jag or the handle off an old toilet plunger. If you aren't sure that the ball is against the powder, DON'T FIRE THE GUN!

How do you know whether the ball is on top of the powder? CHECK THE GUN!

If you have checked the gun and you are sure it is loaded correctly, then it is NOT dangerous.

Since an act can not be simultaneously dangerous and not-dangerous your argument can not stand.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

This can happen only under certain circumstances.
#1 The patch must be large enough to reach some distance up on the jag. If you cut at the muzzle it will never happen.
#2 You must load with that jag from the muzzle. If you use a starter to run the ball some distance down bore, obviously the jag will not fit itself into the excess patching but will just crumple the cloth down onto the ball.
#3 For this to be a danger the person must be unaware. Bill S. described how it happened to him but he caught it and no harm done. But suppose a fellow ran his load down to the mark on his rod and "hey, my rod seems kind of stuck". So he gives it a sharp jerk, it pulls free and all is well. It never occurs to him to run the rod back down to see if his ball has moved since he didn't realize that had anything to do with his stuck ramrod. Have you never done anything and then thought "geez, that was dumb"?
There seems to be a line of thought here which is going, "It has never happened to me and I don't see how it could happen so I don't believe it can happen". "And since I don't believe it can I therefore don't believe any one who says it has happened". "And since I don't believe anyone who says it has happened that just proves it can't happen". :haha:
Perhaps it is a misstatement to say "it is dangerous" but can we say "it is something of which people may not be aware and should be"?

 

[MrMarine79]

Well put Roundball,

:thumbsup:

 

[MrMarine79]

Promise?

 

[Tumblernotch]

Ditto. If this was to happen, the only way would be for the ball to be extremely loose and the excess patch to be very long and allowed to encase the jag. Then, maybe, just maybe. And if could happen, it's a case of someone who doesn't know how to properly load a PRB. I might just try it just to see if I can. I always cut at the muzzle, so I don't have excess patching.

 

[Tumblernotch]

"If I'm the range safety officer, you'll be leaving the range or changing the way you load."

Uhhh...yeah, right.

 

[Claude Mathis]

It doesn't matter HOW you load the gun. (rhetorically speaking.) I don't care if you use a regular ramrod, a rod with a cleaning jag or the handle off an old toilet plunger. If you aren't sure that the ball is against the powder, DON'T FIRE THE GUN!

How do you know whether the ball is on top of the powder? CHECK THE GUN!

That pretty much sums it up.

My rod has a loading/cleaning jag on it. My patches are cut to the proper size, so they cannot engage the sides of the jag during loading.

Also, I see the "marks" on my rod every time I load the gun. I only fire the gun if the ball is seated.

If others want to use a separate rod for cleaning and another one for loading, who cares? Just make sure you mark your "loading rod" to be sure the ball is seated.

My rod has three marks...

1. Empty
2. Loaded
3. Dry Ball (Ball, no powder)

I offer this for informational purposes only. :hatsoff:

 

[Tumblernotch]

Well, I see on the other cleaning/loading jag thread that the experiment to see if you can pull a ball out with your jag has been done, so I don't have to waste my time with it. But who knows? Might just do it anyways someday.
:hmm:

 

[huntman58]

I for one have read and will take under thought what has been said here :applause: . I know I tend to cut my patches a bit to long because of my short starter :surrender: (they almost fully wrap the ball) and because of this tread I am now making a short short starter :wink filing down the small nipple on it) I also know that shooting guns any gun is in and by it's self a inheritably dangerous. I do not plan to stop shooting because of that but I also do not plan to stop learning more about the sport for others even if I do or do not agree. I also would have to ask if Mark watched the whole loading being done from wipe to ball being rammed down and then pulled back up or did you just see the ball at the muzzle and was told how it got there? When I started in the world of black I was told to blow down the barrel by an old time shooter who also was an old man and looked like he was as old as the gun he was shooting and I did ( ya I was stupid to belive it and even more so to do it !!).I always wondered why and yet believed what I had been told and what I saw. later in life thinking "why is it okay to put your face over a black powder gun and not any other" got's me to thinking so now I no longer blow down the barrel but keep the hammer down on the nipple .I then use a wet patch run down the bore I also have now read that this is how the right way to do it is (a second or two longer then blowing down the barrel is all it takes) and I feel safer doing this as now no body part is ever over the barrel muzzle but two fingers for loading with the ram rod. I do believe a patch could get hooked and pull a ball out but I also at lest for my self and being I do not shot a lose fit load know that in my gun, my self or any one other would feel the ball move some if there paying attention to what there doing .by the way leaving the rod in the gun if interrupted is some thing I am going to take up and hope it ends my dry ball days :cursing: . I do know my rod is marked empty, dry ball, and good load!( thanks to an old time shorter for showing me that trick) any thing or any were other then the three marks would make me worry. I also do not hammer the ball down as I se some do but I do compress the load a tiny bit. I believe Mark saw what he saw and believes fully in what he is saying and with some valid reasons as if some one did that next to me and did not feel it or know it I would not want to be shooting around them at all . Kind of like shooting around some one who is using a flintier and on the bench is an opened can of powder with no lid on it .Yes I have seen that also done. I also believe others like my self use or have used compo jags that are designed to both load and clean. I do know that with my jag you have to use two thicknesses of a patch to get a lose fit for wiping out. The real cleaning is done with a jag made for that and it is bigger then the combo one I use. now because of this one post the gun I am building will not have a compo or cleaning jag on it at all only a brass end same size as the rod that I can screw a jag to but it is also being done for looks as I never liked how a jag looked on the rifle I thank every one for there input as it has given me things to think about and in another way has also change how I am doing my current build