Loading the flintlock so it will fire after the first shot

[CoyoteJoe]

Me too Dan. For range work I only use spit patches and if I swab out the bore it is because I want to, such as when trying a different load, and not because I can't still get a ball down. When I do swab it is also with a spit patch followed by a dry patch, no need to purchase and carry around a bunch of lubes and cleaners, spit works as well as any of them and much better than some. I've never conducted a test to see how many shots I can fire without swabbing but as many as I've ever wanted to fire in a day but whatever lube you use you should be able to fire at least several shot without swabbing.
The only time I've ever had trouble getting a load down was way back when I was so green at hunting that I thought I needed maxi-balls, now I know better. :haha:

 

[caionneach]

You guys have gotten me thinking about what I did that was so different as to foul my attempt at a consecutive shot after swabbing the barrel, when before I didn't have much trouble with this.

It *has* been a few months since I shot my flinter, a blued Lyman GPR in .54 cal. When I swabbed it, I took it off the bench rest and placed the butt against the ground and wet the patch and swabbed the barrel. That--placing the rifle in a vertical position--has to be my principal mistake besides the wet patch. It must have caused the excess solvent to wet the breech excessively, or enough to dampen any powder loaded for a subsequent shot. I have a few flinter tools which each have vent picks, but these were no good when this happened.

Next time, I will only used a dampened patch, dampened either with saliva or a teeny bit of bore shine, and keep the rifle in a horizontal position.

 

[Mattole]

Since I am a follower of Dutch's Accuracy System, I run a slightly dampened cleaning patch down the bore between each shot. I'm in no hurry, and I like the addition to the ritual...

 

[tg]

"The only time I've ever had trouble getting a load down was way back when I was so green at hunting that I thought I needed maxi-balls, now I know better."

:hatsoff: :hatsoff: :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Remember that your Lyman rifle has a reduced diameter powder chamber at the breech, and you need to flush that chamber, the small hole at the back of it, along with the flash channel that goes over to the side of the action where a TH opens to the flash pan, with alcohol to dissolve dried greases, and oils, in those parts. If you don't remove those- cleaning the bore with a patch and jag won't get it done--- the first shot produces charred GUM in these parts. You are unlikely to get powder from the next charge down into the small flash channel, so it can move over close to the TH for ignition. :hmm: :thumbsup:

This is a problem of the design of the gun- and just something you have to Know, and then deal with when shooting these rifles. However, Lymans have a good reputation as fine, accurate rifles.

 

[caionneach]

Since I am a follower of Dutch's Accuracy System, I run a slightly dampened cleaning patch down the bore between each shot. I'm in no hurry, and I like the addition to the ritual...

So you're a paying customer to Dutch Schooltz and blackpoweraccuracy.com? I like the idea of swabbing with a damp patch between shots. If I'm not mistaken, other techniques include precise weight of lead round balls, precise thickness of wadding and patch material.

 

[caionneach]

the first shot produces charred GUM in these parts. You are unlikely to get powder from the next charge down into the small flash channel, so it can move over close to the TH for ignition.

So each shot produces gum in this area. Is that due to the design of the Lyman GPR breech or is that not common with the breech areas of all muzzleloaders?

 

[tg]

"So you're a paying customer to Dutch Schooltz and blackpoweraccuracy.com? I like the idea of swabbing with a damp patch between shots. If I'm not mistaken, other techniques include precise weight of lead round balls, precise thickness of wadding and patch material"

there are a lot of methods, most are not required and will likley only produce accuracy increases noticable by bench shooters, most often the methods and materials used 200-300 years ago will offer results quite satisfacory for the majority of shooters/hunters....the old K.I.S.S. adage comes to play quite well when talking of shooting/cleaning MLs.

 

[Darkgael]

I have a Lyman GPR flint gun - and a 20 gauge fowler.
I clean after every shot when I am at the range.
I use pure alcohol from a little squeeze bottle. It works just fine.
I do not see any reason not to clean between each shot, so I do.
In the field, I'm hunting grouse or pheasant. I may not clean then - but the number of shots is limited in any case.
Pete

 

[mikee51848]

I should add that I use Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine, and last time I used it after about the 4th or 5th shot to remove fouling. My technique wasn't so good because I couldn't fire my rifle afterwards.

I've used Butch's also, but only to clean the barrel when I'm done shooting. Butch's will foam up and needs to be flushed out completely with cold water. At the range, I will spit patch after every third shot. Those who say they can shot 20-30 times without cleaning the bore, well...I don't know their secret. :idunno:

 

[caionneach]

I've used Butch's also, but only to clean the barrel when I'm done shooting. Butch's will foam up and needs to be flushed out completely with cold water. At the range, I will spit patch after every third shot. Those who say they can shot 20-30

So you flush with water, then what? Oil? What kind? I've read that in the 18th & 19th centuries black powder rifles were routinely loaded with a standard load after cleaning "just in case" and the rifles routinely fired when asked to do so. I would like to be able to clean and load with confidence that my next load will fire when I pull the trigger. If Butch's Bore Shine foams as you say, then it is only suitable for cleaning after range or hunting time is accomplished, and I should not use it between shots at the range.

 

[ohio ramrod]

I use well lubed patches (bees wax and lard ) and have no trouble loading two or three times before swabing. For swabing in hunting situations which may be below freezing I use damp alcohol (90 %)patches. The secret is damp not wet! alcohol is a great solvent and doesn't freeze, and drys rapidly, Plus any thing over 50% will not prevent the powder from firing. ( This is how 50% alcohol got to be considered 100 proof. Proof that it would burn)

 

[Vaino]

When I'm at the range I continue shooting until the PRB is hard to load {usually after 8-10 shots}and then wire brush and dump the debris. I go to the range to shoot, not to clean the gun and if cleaning is necessary after every shot, then the patch/ball combo would be changed. For those of you who do clean after every shot, have you ever just shot until it's hard to load and then observed your groups? Mlers are very forgiving asre charges, patch/ball combos if reasonably tight, lubricants and whether the bore is clean or fouled. For many years did CF bench rest shooting w/ all it's complications but when I started to shoot MLers found that keeping it simple was best...afterall, I don't think that shooters of our early history cleaned after every shot. Also I've found that the first shot from a clean vs fouled bbl shouldn't affect the acccuracy to any degree.....Fred

 

[paulvallandigham]

There are, basically, two different style Breeches being sold by commercial gun makers here in the USA: The Nock-style Patent Breech- with its reduced size powder chamber, comes with most all guns imported in whole or as parts from Europe, and the T/C rifles. ( Lyman, Investment arms, Pedersoli, etc.)

The other Breech is a " Flat Breech", where the breech is located 1/8" to the rear of the TH. The vent hole from the flash pan into the barrel goes directly into the barrel from the side, rather than running down a small flash channel, turning at right angles, to go through a small hole into the powder chamber.

When you know what your gun has, there is no problem figuring out how to make it fire reliably. My only complain with the Nock Style Patent breeches is that the companies who use them don't do a good enough job telling the buyer that its in his gun, Nor do they tell the shooter what the diameter of that powder chamber is, so he can acquire the correct sized jags to clean it!

The manufacturers seem to thing that because the powder chamber is smaller than the bore, that it "burns itself clean" with each shot fired. That is Not my experience with these guns, nor the experience of dozens of club members who have shot these guns over the years.

The problem with keeping these chambers, and small flash channels clean is compounded by using any petroleum based oils in those parts. But, any oil, left in those small channels, can create an obstruction sufficient to block the movement of powder through the flash channel to the TH, where the presence of powder at the mouth of the TH is essential for consistent ignition.

Normally, the air between your PRB and the powder charge in the barrel, will push some powder ahead of it as it escapes out the TH, as the PRB is driven down the barrel onto the powder charge. If there is oil in the chamber, or in the small channels, you get gummy "clumps" of powder that will not ignite well, or easily, and cannot move through the flash channel to the TH.

Worse, if they plug the small hole at the back of the powder chamber, they can prevent ANY powder from moving to the TH. The air instead escapes up the grooves of the rifling. Some shooters report experiencing " dieseling", where their PRB comes back up off the powder, when they release the pressure on their ramrods, due to trapped air between the powder charge and the PRB. :hmm:

That can create a "bore obstruction" in the barrel of an unaware shooter. :nono:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

[I've used Butch's also, but only to clean the barrel when I'm done shooting. Butch's will foam up and needs to be flushed out completely with cold water. At the range, I will spit patch after every third shot. Those who say they can shot 20-30 times without cleaning the bore, well...I don't know their secret. :idunno:

I don't think it's a secret, spit patch or any liquid patch lube will dissolve fouling to partially clean the bore with every load rammed down. Any stiff grease, animal, mineral or vegetable will ease loading by slipping over the fouling but will not remove it so you get a buildup from successive shots. But for hunting you'll only need one or two reloads at most and that should be possible with most patch lubes.

 

[Leon/Iowa]

For the second shot or follow up shot, try pouring your powder load down the barrel and then if you want to clean out the fouling do so with a damp spit patch. Followed by a dry patch. This method keeps from pushing any crud into the flash hole and causing a misfire. Works for me. Leon

 

[Zonie]

A small point of correction.

The breech found on almost all current Italian produced rifles is not a Henry Nock Patent Breech. It is a Joseph Manton Chambered Breech.

Except for a few custom made rifles, there are no currently made Nock Patent Breeches.

Nock Patented his invention, which was said to increase the speed of ignition and Joseph Manton could not use the design without paying royalities to Nock.

Rather than paying a competitor for use of the Nock Patent, Manton developed the Chambered breech.

This is the design that most current Italian rifles and those rifles that have a 'snail' style breech plug use.

Notice the smaller 'powder chamber' behind the actual bore.
The drawing of the Chambered Breech does not show the smaller 'flame channel' that would connect the chamber to a nipple (or some Italian flintlock vents).

 

[LaBonte]

Sorry Zonie , but you need to check your history - the chambered breech (NOT a Manton invention -teh chambered breech was originally used as early as the 1740's, well before the Manton's breech whihc is circa 1790's-1800) was developed BEFORE the Nock the Patent of 1787 not after.
The Manton breech is in fact an improved development of the Nock breech - the difference being that the Manton breech allowed the lock to be inset, shortening the touch hole - making it generally faster and more reliable then the Nock breech. All three styles were originally designed for smoothbores, but were later developed of pistols and rifles with some adaptions.

Here's pics of an original chambered breech and it's later variation the Nock as illustrated in George's seminal book on English guns:

The Nock-style Patent Breech- with its reduced size powder chamber

Frankly the modern so-called patent breeches on most commercial guns are mediocre to BAD copies of the originals when compared.
On original guns the powder chamber is only slightly reduced - NOT the heavily reduced chamber that even the patent drawings show.
Look closely at several originals even by various makers and you'll see the difference.
And FWIW - cap lock Patent breeches are a different "animal" and should be only peripherally compared to the flint breeches..........

 

[hanshi]

Some things I've learned over the years is that spit patch works fine and allows shooting without wiping after each shot. I don't use spit patch now but did religiously at one time. The patch should be wet but never soaked. Any patch used to wipe will push crud to the breech causing misfires. Paul is correct in saying stop the patch before it gets to the bottom. Grease lubes cause a paste when mixed with fouling from a shot. This makes loading a third or fourth (and sometimes a second) shot a rod breaking event. I've learned a good, snug patch helps keep the bore "clean". Just a few things I've learned that not everyone agrees with but seem to hold true in my shooting.

 

[Zonie]

I will accept that the Chambered Breech pre-dated Nocks Patent however this does not change the intent of my post.

The modern guns supplied by Italy do not use a Nock's Patent Breech which had a small anti-chamber, separated from the main powder charge by a small orifice who's purpose was to direct a jet of flame from the powder burning in it into the main powder charge.

Modern guns use the Chambered Breech principal.