Loading with the frizzen closed?

[CorporalofMarines]

"First of all, loading with the frizzen closed is a real safety issue. It is not allowed at any gun club."

I shoot with the use of historically faithful paper cartridges using the von Steuben manual of arms which he taught the continentals.
It calls for the priming of the pan and closing of the frizzen at half cock.

Is this more fear mongering from the range safety nazis or has the modern muzzleloading community lost the link to the past?

 

[Semisane]

Modern muzzle loaders value their fingers a bit more than van Steuben valued the fingers of the troops.

 

[kopfjaeger]

In Don Bruton's dvd he talks a little about why they loaded like that back in the 1700's. He said it was faster, I guess when your in a fight for your life with an enemy loading even a little bit faster takes priority over safety. He did say not to load that way now days because of safety issues. I know being historically correct to some guys is important but it's not worth it to me to lose a finger or hand. :thumbsup:

 

[George T.]

It would be a sad day indeed if we had not learned anything over the last 250 years! Geo. T.

 

[pargent]

Feel free to try it away from anyone else of course , I feel you will soon learn the meaning of the expression going off half cocked
FYI what was used in a tactical situation 250 years ago is not regarded as smart now days .

 

[F.G. Ford]

Historically, men used to smoke while mixing powder :shocked2:
Not good :v
Old Ford

 

[Many Klatch]

"Is this more fear mongering from the range safety nazis or has the modern muzzleloading community lost the link to the past?"

The range safety rules are there to protect shooters from themselves and the guy shooting next to them. We have enough accidents with powder horns exploding because someone forgot to put the plug back in and guns going off when the lock is faulty. You are allowed to load and shoot anyway you want when on your own and off in the woods. If you are going to shoot next to me at a match you will follow the safety rules that everyone else follows.

Many Klatch

 

[CorporalofMarines]

Feel free to try it away from anyone else of course , I feel you will soon learn the meaning of the expression going off half cocked
FYI what was used in a tactical situation 250 years ago is not regarded as smart now days .

"going off half cocked"
that is largely implied as a failure to create sparks on the frizzen.

 

[CorporalofMarines]

Historically, men used to smoke while mixing powder :shocked2:
Not good :v
Old Ford

This was not consistent. We're talking about an agreed upon manual of arms that all men exercised without whim.
Prior to the Peninsular campaign of 1810s, most middle class men smoked pipes (going back 2-300 years). The cigar came from interaction with the Spanish peasants. By which time powder making was being industrialized. The likelyhood of what you said is low. Also seeing as how cigars were only affordable by the upper classes and not the workers.

 

[CorporalofMarines]

"Is this more fear mongering from the range safety nazis or has the modern muzzleloading community lost the link to the past?"

The range safety rules are there to protect shooters from themselves and the guy shooting next to them. We have enough accidents with powder horns exploding because someone forgot to put the plug back in and guns going off when the lock is faulty. You are allowed to load and shoot anyway you want when on your own and off in the woods. If you are going to shoot next to me at a match you will follow the safety rules that everyone else follows.

Many Klatch

Besides being a load, cartridge and firearms technique historian I've also covered this bandwagon phenomenon of scare mongering in the civilian field.
At times there was absolutely no proof for danger and at others the possibility for something to go wrong was of very small odds. http://m1903.com/03rcvrfail/

Same thing with India muskets. Same type of old elitist opinion that has the gall to tell an armorer that his muskets are dangerous to user based on his years of experience in using them. When that same logic is applied, I should be able to fix or make a night vision goggle due to a decade of using them.


You'll note how not a single person will stand up for his beliefs in this thread but simply conform to the opinion of the most vocal range nazi.
Especially when this entire issue can be solved with the use of a hammerstall on the closed frizzen.

Something else to consider is that most reenactor manuals are still true to what they were 2 centuries ago. Once the pan is primed, the butt is slammed against the ground. In other cases, when tap loading, the fusilier will slam the butt against the ground on a half cocked musket.

The leftovers of a paper cartridge might also worry you. I have yet to see that confirm everyone's worst expectations of a burning ember ignite the next powder charge.

 

[CorporalofMarines]

It would be a sad day indeed if we had not learned anything over the last 250 years! Geo. T.

Yes we transitioned to caplocks and breech loaders. Thats about it. Meaning the link to the past was broken. Nobody here was born in a world where only firelocks existed.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

I'm not so sure the priming of the pan before the the main powder charge was due to loading being faster....this past Saturday I was at an reenactment and did notice the shooters were priming their Fusils first, closing the frizzen and then adding the main charge into the barrel! This struck me as unsafe and I surmised the reason to be the shooter didn't want to accidently drop all the powder down the barrel having none left to prime with? Which would nessitate opening another paper cartridge...wasting time and powder! :v

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'm not so sure the priming of the pan before the the main powder charge was due to loading being faster....this past Saturday I was at an reenactment and did notice the shooters were priming their Fusils first, closing the frizzen and then adding the main charge into the barrel! This struck me as unsafe and I surmised the reason to be the shooter didn't want to accidently drop all the powder down the barrel having none left to prime with? Which would nessitate opening another paper cartridge...wasting time and powder! :v

It struck you correctly. That practice is very unsafe. But, there will always be the "it ain't blowed up yet" crowd who, for some reason, are determined to defy the odds and engage in unsafe practices. That is why we have rules and range officers.

 

[nchawkeye]

Feel free to try it away from anyone else of course , I feel you will soon learn the meaning of the expression going off half cocked
FYI what was used in a tactical situation 250 years ago is not regarded as smart now days .

"going off half cocked"
that is largely implied as a failure to create sparks on the frizzen.

Nope, going off half cocked is going off ready for a fight...

 

[flyfisher76544]

Feel free to try it away from anyone else of course , I feel you will soon learn the meaning of the expression going off half cocked
FYI what was used in a tactical situation 250 years ago is not regarded as smart now days .

"going off half cocked"
that is largely implied as a failure to create sparks on the frizzen.

Actually it was when the hammer fell on the frizzen when the hammer was at half-cock and the gun went off...... not a failure to create sparks (hence the wording of 'going off half-cocked')
:shake: :shake: :shake:
Now on to the important stuff..... why is it so dang important for you to load in what most consider to be an unsafe manner? So what if it is in a manual of arms written 200 some odd years ago. That was for speed on the battle field..... not on the range in a controlled environment.

 

[gearheart]

It would be a sad day indeed if we had not learned anything over the last 250 years! Geo. T.

Yes we transitioned to caplocks and breech loaders. Thats about it. Meaning the link to the past was broken. Nobody here was born in a world where only firelocks existed.

Another broken link to the past is that we place a much higher value on life than they did back then. We also know that "accidents" don't just happen. They are caused by a lack of thought, and can be prevented. Nowadays accidents caused by stupid usually lead to lawsuits.

 

[Dphar]

Something else to consider is that most reenactor manuals are still true to what they were 2 centuries ago. Once the pan is primed, the butt is slammed against the ground. In other cases, when tap loading, the fusilier will slam the butt against the ground on a half cocked musket.

The leftovers of a paper cartridge might also worry you. I have yet to see that confirm everyone's worst expectations of a burning ember ignite the next powder charge.

There is a video of a musket firing when the powder is pouring in during a speed loading demonstration its on youtube I think. No paper wadding. From my reading paper is not allowed down the bore at reenactments anyway.
I saw a guy very nearly shoot a hole in his hat brim, I still don't know how it missed the hat, with as fully loaded cheapo percussion rifle at a match once.
I have a flintlock with a safety that is very secure and I would not worry a great deal about loading it with the pan primed and I keep the frizzen closed and safety on when its being transported loaded in a vehicle. If the vent is down or to the side it will vibrate powder out the vent unless the frizzen is closed and the vent wiper covering the vent.
The military did and does all sorts of dangerous things civilians are better off not trying. During patrolling or firefights pointing guns at people in your unit is not uncommon at all. But pointing loaded guns in the direction of other people will get a shooter at LEAST reprimanded or put off the range completely anywhere in civilian shooting. So what is/was done in COMBAT is not applicable to NON-COMBAT activities.
The problem with failures and accidents as they may only occur a few times in 50 or 100 thousand shots. They may occur at the 1st or the 10 thousandth or 50 thousandth shot fired in a given sport. For example over the years they have been a number of accidental discharges some with serious injury at Friendship, IN over the years attributed to embers in the the breech. After all these need not be incandescent 500 degrees of so will ignite BP.
The problem is that the potential for death or maiming is high and accidents can result in whole reenactments being permanently banned from firearms use if a serious injury occurs.
Cheap MLs are FAR more prone to accidents not related to human error (other than in their making the junk) than quality guns. Just a fact and its based on my years of working as a gunsmith specializing in 18th and 19th c designs.
Then there are at least two failures of cheap imported "reenactor grade" firearms barrels while shooting BLANKS that I know of. Why would I shoot a firearm or attend an event where people shoot firearms that have proven to have barrels that will fail with BLANK, powder only, loads?

Dan

 

[roundball]

"going off half cocked"
that is largely implied as a failure to create sparks on the frizzen.

You have a misunderstanding.
It literally means that a hammer released from its "half cock" position...and on a primed Flintlock or a capped caplock, that usually results in an accidental discharge, hence the time honored phrase "going off half cocked".

 

[rich pierce]

It's not always easy having someone at a range tell you what to do and how to do it. Tends to run crosswise to the grain. After all, we are independent minded folks. So I try to think of the gun range as a military type situation. I do what they tell me to do because they are in charge. And if the rules stick in my craw I try to find another place to shoot.

 

[Black Hand]

It's not always easy having someone at a range tell you what to do and how to do it. Tends to run crosswise to the grain. After all, we are independent minded folks. So I try to think of the gun range as a military type situation. I do what they tell me to do because they are in charge. And if the rules stick in my craw I try to find another place to shoot.

Excellent advice!
After all, you are playing in their sandbox (and under their insurance coverage). Play by their rules or be asked to leave.