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The solution to the problem was once recorded in a Robert Heinlein story when years before the populace of the country had risen up in one weekend and slew all the lawy... oh, never mind.
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Loading with the frizzen closed?
- Thread starter CorporalofMarines
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Let's refrain from name calling.Unknown Musketman said:
Unknown Musketman said:
In my experience it's not so much he range managers but rather due to the insurance companies and our litigious society. Without insurance the ranges cannot operate legally and open themselves up to possible massive law suits....If you want to practice things as they were once done then it's going to be necessary to find a private place to do so....
The practice of priming the pan first came about when troops were only issued cartridges, the paper cartridge was torn open some powder was placed in the pan for prime the pan closed the butt of the musket placed on the ground or at the trail (THIS WAS THE PREFERED POSITION )the remainder of the powder poured into the muzzle then the ball and paper rammed home , this and this alone was the sole reason the pan was primed before loading , it should also be noted that with the musket held in the trail position the muzzle is pointing away from the shooter towards the enemy .
54ball
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Nobody has ever been born in a world where only firelocks existed. There was the sword,bow,pike, lance and the spear so what's your point??
Unlike many here, my unit primes and loads in our demonstrations. We also ram the cartridge. The only thing different than the old military method is, our cartridges have no ball. We never have opposing forces and we have a clear range.
I was hesitant to get into this. I think the context you want to use this method is at best pointless and the worst dangerous in the close confines of a shooting range. Not just to you but to others around you.
If you are so willing to embrace the past why use a reenactorism like a frizzen stall. If you are going there why not go all the way?
Is this a actual documented period method of taught military procedure or does it date back to the Sharpe's Rifles series of books? Prime, pour, spit, tap, shoot???
This method may have been used by Indains, maybe by Kenton or Wentzel on the run, but I still have my doubts about the spit part. As far as US military manuals I've found no evidence of such a load being taught.
You seem to come busting up in here with some kind of agenda. Is the post above it? Have you been run off some range and now want to spread the the Gospel of, Prime,Pour,Spit,Tap,Shoot?
In another thread on Prussian priming very much related to this one, you want the musket to fire three to five shots, rapid fire, at the same deer.
Muskets were never used that way, heck rifles were not used that way. What about the woodsman's skill of get close and harvest with one shot? Who is losing a link to the past?
If you want a rapid fire military weapon that drips history I suggest the M1 Garand. You'll find those eight 30-06s rapid fire are most excellent for scaring off all manner of game and you do not even have to bite the cartridge.
Yes, a bad practice, even though it worked for a combat application, does not mean that we should continue that practice.
It is one thing for an accurate historical presentation to prime then load. We drill to make that process as safe as possible. Still an ember may set off a charge. No hammerstall can prevent an ember in the barrel from setting off a charge.
As a sergeant for my unit, I am not about to tolerate such unsafe practices during live fire.
Would you load with a percussion cap on the nipple? No way for me!
It is one thing for an accurate historical presentation to prime then load. We drill to make that process as safe as possible. Still an ember may set off a charge. No hammerstall can prevent an ember in the barrel from setting off a charge.
As a sergeant for my unit, I am not about to tolerate such unsafe practices during live fire.
Would you load with a percussion cap on the nipple? No way for me!
frogwalking
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When mother said we "were going off half cocked" she meant that we were not properly prepared. I always took this to mean "going off", that is moving away, or forward, with the hammer on half cock, (unready) rather than on full cock, and therefore, completely ready. Just my .02 worth.
Ler's look it up on the 'net and see.
Ler's look it up on the 'net and see.
I was wondering if someone was going to go with that point.Thats is the pretext Ive always understood "going off half cocked"meant.Notready,as in bringing your gun up to fire but forgetting to bring it to full cock first,or rushing up to some guy who ticked you off and once there you notice his 4 friends behind him and remembering your alone.
What he said.
The Pennsylvania Gazette
May 23, 1771
We hear from Chesterfield, in New Jersey, that on Tuesday, the 14th Instant, was suddenly summoned hence, in the 18th Year of his Age, by the accidental Discharge of a Gun (which it was supposed went off at Half Cock, by a Person attempting to remove it from the Place it stood in) Mr. EDWARD PAGE, jun. only Son of Mr. EDWARD PAGE, of that Place. --- He was a young Man much esteemed, and whose unfortunate Death is therefore greatly lamented by all who knew him.
Spence
The Pennsylvania Gazette
May 23, 1771
We hear from Chesterfield, in New Jersey, that on Tuesday, the 14th Instant, was suddenly summoned hence, in the 18th Year of his Age, by the accidental Discharge of a Gun (which it was supposed went off at Half Cock, by a Person attempting to remove it from the Place it stood in) Mr. EDWARD PAGE, jun. only Son of Mr. EDWARD PAGE, of that Place. --- He was a young Man much esteemed, and whose unfortunate Death is therefore greatly lamented by all who knew him.
Spence
Why thank you Spence again , you are worth your weight in gold, sometimes I supose some of the guys who reply on these posts through no fault of their own don't at times quite grasp just what we are babbling about, and I am as guilty of this as most 
English is a 1000 year old bastard collection of words from many backgrounds, and we must remember that the people on here are from many nations all speaking it in their own context
English is a 1000 year old bastard collection of words from many backgrounds, and we must remember that the people on here are from many nations all speaking it in their own context
CorporalofMarines
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I am truly at a loss in figuring out what form of reality you people belong to, likely just the rifle range specie of muzzle loader with a dozen different gimmicks and taking over 2 minutes to load a round.
The rammer issue has been addressed by the parks service and the full loading and firing manual is shortened in that regard, but do you honestly think that the tens of thousands of flintlock owners around the country attending hundreds of events actually subscribe to the "prime last" philosophy you spread here?
It's almost laughable but at the same time saddening what your kind is doing to this hobby.
Springing rammers and an exercise in which the musket is put on half cock and inspected to make sure it would not go off at half cock is all a part of pre-event checks during which the state parks representative is present.
I wonder if even half of the users on this forum know military firelocks were equipped with a half cock notch as a safety feature.
Even more amusing was the lack of awareness of the uses of a hammerstall.
Stick to the rifle range.
...what a waste
The rammer issue has been addressed by the parks service and the full loading and firing manual is shortened in that regard, but do you honestly think that the tens of thousands of flintlock owners around the country attending hundreds of events actually subscribe to the "prime last" philosophy you spread here?
It's almost laughable but at the same time saddening what your kind is doing to this hobby.
Springing rammers and an exercise in which the musket is put on half cock and inspected to make sure it would not go off at half cock is all a part of pre-event checks during which the state parks representative is present.
I wonder if even half of the users on this forum know military firelocks were equipped with a half cock notch as a safety feature.
Even more amusing was the lack of awareness of the uses of a hammerstall.
Stick to the rifle range.
...what a waste
Bear Rider
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We belong to the species that can still count ten fingers and two eyes even though we use live rounds rather than blanks.
Pete G
76 Cal.
Looks like we have someone who wants to ask a question and then argue with the answer. The real answer to the original question is...
"Logic and common sense"
"Logic and common sense"
Just a few things to add to this bonfire...
At reenactments, we are typically using 80 to 100 grains of low grade (often mixed granule size) or 2f black powder loaded in a paper cartridge. As Unknown Musketman says the manual of arms, both the 1764 British Manual of Arms and the Von Steuben Manual call for priming the pan first with the cock (hammer) at 1/2 cock position, then pouring the rest of the powder down the barrel and finally ramming home the ball that is still in the paper.
In reenactments we of course do not use lead balls. We also do not ram the paper for two reasons. One is that some idiots have forgotten to remove and replace the ramrod in their pipes in their hurry to catch up to the rest of the line and the result has been the launch of a ramrod towards the opposing line. It happened a couple of times back in the late 70's during the bicentennial and as a result the BAR, the Continental Line, and the National Park Service all prohibited ramming the charge.
The other reason is because the paper remains smolder after they are fired. I have done some small reenactments and demonstrations where we did ram the paper on top of the powder and it gives a much more satisfying report. However, with a line of 6 men or more, there is almost always one that has to step forward about 10-ft and put the smoking, smoldering paper out with his foot.
The main reason for priming the pan first and then pouring the charge into the barrel and ramming it home was to be able to put out a rapid rate of fire. ALL the British soldiers could maintain a speed of 3 shots per minute or they were not allowed to be soldiers. Of course Black Powder fouls and rapid and repeated firing could cause problems with loading and firing at that rate. To deal with that problem, the Brits used a .69 caliber ball in their .75 caliber muskets. Definitely not an accurate load but when you have 24 to 48 men firing them all at once it's like firing a huge, long-range, shotgun, so accuracy was not of primary importance. Within about 50-yards this would result in a "withering fire".
Rifles were a whole different thing and using rifles in a line was disastrous as some of the Continental Generals found out when they required them to fight in the line with their rifles. Using a patched ball for accuracy and reach, they are much slower loading and you really can't come close to 3 shots per minute. They also don't have any accommodation for a bayonet. So when the enemy got close and charged bayonets, the rifles would run in the other direction because they only had a tomahawk to defend themselves against what was basically a 6-foot spear.
Rifles and rifle companies were most effectively used as scouts, skirmishers (first ones to fire at the enemy and engaging them long before they came into musket range), and after the musket lines came into range as snipers from the flanks picking off officers and artillery crews first while protecting the flanks of the main line.
So it made perfect sense to prime the pan first when loading muskets from a cartridge and ALL the muskets loaded from cartridges. If you are using cartridges in your hunting, that is still the most convenient way to use them although you do run a risk of injury if you have a malfunction in your lock and you have neglected to put the hammer-stall on the hammer (frizzen).
One of the things we do as a safety inspection before any reenactment battle is spring rammers to make sure there is nothing in the barrel (they won't "spring" if there is a ball or powder in there) and hang the firelock by the trigger with the cock in the 1/2-cock position. If the cock falls with that test, that firelock is not allowed to participate. As long as your lock is in good shape, the 1/2-cock position is a very effective safety.
In reenactments we are firing blank, un-rammed charges so I prime the pan first which was the norm. Personally, when hunting or at the range, I choose to use my powder horn and measure to charge my rifle and always charge the prime after the main charge. When hunting, once I reach my targeted area, I apply the prime and then put the cock in the 1/2-cock position and use a hammerstall as an extra bit of safety.
When you're hunting on your own you are welcome to choose the method you are most comfortable with. If you're shooting at a public range (or private for that matter) you have to follow the rules of the range no matter how silly they may seem to you. The other choice is to go somewhere else to shoot. Most of the ranges that I've been to won't allow you to approach the firing line with a primed pan. Rather they require you to prime it once you are on the firing line.
So, choose the method you want to use and put up with the limitations of where you will be able to use it. As a little bit of a work-around, you could still use cartridges along with a priming horn at places you are not allowed to prime the pan first.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
At reenactments, we are typically using 80 to 100 grains of low grade (often mixed granule size) or 2f black powder loaded in a paper cartridge. As Unknown Musketman says the manual of arms, both the 1764 British Manual of Arms and the Von Steuben Manual call for priming the pan first with the cock (hammer) at 1/2 cock position, then pouring the rest of the powder down the barrel and finally ramming home the ball that is still in the paper.
In reenactments we of course do not use lead balls. We also do not ram the paper for two reasons. One is that some idiots have forgotten to remove and replace the ramrod in their pipes in their hurry to catch up to the rest of the line and the result has been the launch of a ramrod towards the opposing line. It happened a couple of times back in the late 70's during the bicentennial and as a result the BAR, the Continental Line, and the National Park Service all prohibited ramming the charge.
The other reason is because the paper remains smolder after they are fired. I have done some small reenactments and demonstrations where we did ram the paper on top of the powder and it gives a much more satisfying report. However, with a line of 6 men or more, there is almost always one that has to step forward about 10-ft and put the smoking, smoldering paper out with his foot.
The main reason for priming the pan first and then pouring the charge into the barrel and ramming it home was to be able to put out a rapid rate of fire. ALL the British soldiers could maintain a speed of 3 shots per minute or they were not allowed to be soldiers. Of course Black Powder fouls and rapid and repeated firing could cause problems with loading and firing at that rate. To deal with that problem, the Brits used a .69 caliber ball in their .75 caliber muskets. Definitely not an accurate load but when you have 24 to 48 men firing them all at once it's like firing a huge, long-range, shotgun, so accuracy was not of primary importance. Within about 50-yards this would result in a "withering fire".
Rifles were a whole different thing and using rifles in a line was disastrous as some of the Continental Generals found out when they required them to fight in the line with their rifles. Using a patched ball for accuracy and reach, they are much slower loading and you really can't come close to 3 shots per minute. They also don't have any accommodation for a bayonet. So when the enemy got close and charged bayonets, the rifles would run in the other direction because they only had a tomahawk to defend themselves against what was basically a 6-foot spear.
Rifles and rifle companies were most effectively used as scouts, skirmishers (first ones to fire at the enemy and engaging them long before they came into musket range), and after the musket lines came into range as snipers from the flanks picking off officers and artillery crews first while protecting the flanks of the main line.
So it made perfect sense to prime the pan first when loading muskets from a cartridge and ALL the muskets loaded from cartridges. If you are using cartridges in your hunting, that is still the most convenient way to use them although you do run a risk of injury if you have a malfunction in your lock and you have neglected to put the hammer-stall on the hammer (frizzen).
One of the things we do as a safety inspection before any reenactment battle is spring rammers to make sure there is nothing in the barrel (they won't "spring" if there is a ball or powder in there) and hang the firelock by the trigger with the cock in the 1/2-cock position. If the cock falls with that test, that firelock is not allowed to participate. As long as your lock is in good shape, the 1/2-cock position is a very effective safety.
In reenactments we are firing blank, un-rammed charges so I prime the pan first which was the norm. Personally, when hunting or at the range, I choose to use my powder horn and measure to charge my rifle and always charge the prime after the main charge. When hunting, once I reach my targeted area, I apply the prime and then put the cock in the 1/2-cock position and use a hammerstall as an extra bit of safety.
When you're hunting on your own you are welcome to choose the method you are most comfortable with. If you're shooting at a public range (or private for that matter) you have to follow the rules of the range no matter how silly they may seem to you. The other choice is to go somewhere else to shoot. Most of the ranges that I've been to won't allow you to approach the firing line with a primed pan. Rather they require you to prime it once you are on the firing line.
So, choose the method you want to use and put up with the limitations of where you will be able to use it. As a little bit of a work-around, you could still use cartridges along with a priming horn at places you are not allowed to prime the pan first.
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:
Amen, Bro.
Worth repeating:
