Long Range & Paper Patch

[bighole]

Hello,

I recently had a chance to look at the results of the Oakridge, TN Long Range Muzzle Loader match results and noticed that 7 of the 10 highest scorers used paper patched bullets over grooved lubed. Overall less than half used paper patched vs groove lube.

Does anyone know why the top people would use the paper patched bullets instead of the groove lubed?

Seems the paper patched are more of a hassle to deal with needed special paper that's hard to get and needing to prepare them shortly before use and even getting them wrapped properly.

Thanks!

 

[ResearchPress]

Paper patching is no great hassle. Even if it was, I wouldn't regard that as a criteria for not doing it.

You can cut plenty of patches to last several shoots in 30 minutes or less. Once you've practiced a little, patching doesn't take long and can be done in comfort listening to your favourite music or watching TV!

The bullets don't necessarily need to be prepared "shortly before use". Once wrapped just store them in ammo boxes to keep the paper clean. Some people lube the patch, and this can be done on the range just before shooting. Only a light coating is needed, and the lube should not be such that it will migrate through the paper, otherwise there is a risk of the paper sticking to the bullet. I just roll mine on top of the same lube I use with my Minie bullets.

I think the initial muzzle velocity of the GG bullet may be greater than a PP bullet, however the grooves will add more drag to the bullet. The smooth sided PP bullet should hold a greater velocity at extended ranges.

There may perhaps also be a 'keeping it traditional' element to this as well, as PP bullets were used in the 19th century long range muzzle loading match rifles.

David

 

[fho]

I talked to Joe Hepsworth at the Ohio Longrifles show at Marietta,ohio. He said that he uses a patch bore size bullet. That is, when the bullet is patched, it is bore diameter.I would like to know how you make your bullets,are they just molded or they molded and then swedged?

Do you use a platium lined nipple and who makes them?

Thank you
Olie

 

[ResearchPress]

I mould my bullets although some swage them. I use a 30:1 lead:tin mix. The patched bullets as you say are bore size or just under and should load with little more weight then the ram rod. Yes, I use a platinum lined nipple. These are essential with long range muzzle loaders; the high pressures generated with large charges of powder and heavy bullets mean that others burn out quickly, leading to gas leak at the hammer.

Joe can provide suitable moulds and also sells platinum lined nipples. He has a web site at www.jcunard.com.

I had the privilege of sharing a firing point with Joe in the US in the 2003 World Long Range Championships. Since then he has also been over here to the UK several times, last for the 2005 World Championships when he captained the US team. I'll be shooting with him in about three weeks when he visits the UK again.

David

 

[bighole]

I think the initial muzzle velocity of the GG bullet may be greater than a PP bullet, however the grooves will add more drag to the bullet. The smooth sided PP bullet should hold a greater velocity at extended ranges.

David

It sounds logical that the smooth sided bullet would retain it's velocity better and have less drag. What is confusing is that the black powder cartridge guys prefer the grease groove bullets. Both shoot at 1000 yds. If the paper patched had better long range ballistics, why wouldn't the BPCR guys also prefer using them?

Is it maybe more of a tradition thing as you mentioned?

 

[ResearchPress]

What is confusing is that the black powder cartridge guys prefer the grease groove bullets.

I've also noted that. It may be something to do with the fact that when muzzle loading a bore sized bullet is used. In the breech loader a groove diameter bullet can be used - I don't shoot a lot of BPCR and in mine do use GG bullets. Loading a groove dia PP bullet may result in the bullet stripping the paper? So far as I know though the original Remington and Sharps match rifles of the Creedmoor era of international long range matches of the 1870s were all loaded with PP bullets. I don't know when the 'modern trend' to GG bullets in BPCR started.

Is it maybe more of a tradition thing as you mentioned?

I suspect there may be an element of this, although so far as I know the top LR shooters at last years World Championships mostly (if not all) used PP bullets. If there was an advantage to be had from GG bullets in the LR ML rifles then I am sure more of these top riflemen would be using them.

David

 

[mountainman_270]

I was wondering what type of paper one would use. It's for my PH Enfield 1858 Naval Pattern(Repro). I shoot the Lee Precision original minnie. I use pure as possible lead and the bullet weight is about 505 grns. The rifle is accurate with about 100 grains of Pyrodex or BP(not a fussy eater). The bullets that are the most accurate are the Great Plains from Hornady, which are tight in the bore. I think if I tighten my minnies with a paper patch I will duplicate the accuracy of the GP bullets. The other reason for the question is I get pure lead from the scrap dealer at $.06 a lb. 14 bullets for that price is worth a try!

 

[fho]

I asume that the sides of the bullet are straight, is this true? I also asume that you have to weight your bullets, so how close a weight of the bullets do you use.

Olie

 

[ResearchPress]

I was wondering what type of paper one would use. It's for my PH Enfield 1858 Naval Pattern(Repro).

I used to use air mail paper which is light and strong, but this seems to be getting harder to find nowadays. I have a good supply of 100% cotton paper now. In the US Buffalo Arms sell such paper. Just type in 'paper' in their search box and you'll find it.

Have a read of the post on Enfield Pritchett Bullet Mould in this section which shows patched Enfield bullets.

BTW if you have a P-H see Parker-Hale Rifles on my web site and please consider completing the serial number survey.

David

 

[ResearchPress]

I assume that the sides of the bullet are straight, is this true? I also asume that you have to weight your bullets, so how close a weight of the bullets do you use.

Yes, the sides of the bullet are straight.

I batch my bullets by weight. The small electronic scales I have weighs to .1 gram (or approx. 1.5 grains). Depending on how many I have (and what the event is I am shooting) I may mix two adjoing batches so within 3 grains is quite often used.

19th century texts by Metford and Young refer to three of four grains as being perfectly safe. I haven't found anything to disagree with that, but maybe I am not so critical as others may be?

It is common to weigh powder charges for long range shooting. The whole topic of weighing powder has howver already been extensively discussed in the Accuracy Forum.

David

 

[paulvallandigham]

Use Onion skin paper, or cigarette papers to paper patch the bullets. You can buy the onion skin in an office supply store by the ream, and save a lot of money, and the cigarette papers can be bought in most cigar and cigarette shops.

You throat the area of the bore in front of the chamber, so that the paper enters the bore as the rifling grabs it. The rifling is supposed to cut the paper, so that it falls away like confetti just beyond the barrel, and does not follow the bullet down range. That is also why you lube PP bulets just before they are to be shot, so the lube does not completely penetrate the paper and glue the paper to the bullet.

 

[Zonie]

Strange as it may sound, I use Dress Pattern paper for the PP I use in my Schutzen.
This paper is .0015 thick and shrinks very nicely after wetting and wrapping it around the bullets.

My rifle has a .400 dia bore so I have been using 330 and 400 grain, .395 diameter swaged cup based paper patch bullets. These bullets have no grooves.
I get these from Montana Precision Swaging.

Wrapping the paper twice around the bullet gives a diameter of .395 + 4 X .0015 or .4010 finished size.
I have been lubing with a 50/50 mix of bees wax and Vasoline Petrolium Jelly right before loading.

 

[mountainman_270]

Thanks to all. I went out and bought the cigarette paper to try first. I am waiting for a new mold-Lyman's PH 566grn Minnie- which should be here in a month or less. I shot some of these given to me by a friend and they were accurate. I think paper patching will make them outstanding.
David, I gladly did the survey. There are a few other Enfield owners here. I'll get the word to them to fill out the survey.

 

[paulvallandigham]

That Dress Pattern Paper is also very thin, but more important, it is also very consistent in thickness. Glad to find out something else works. Using cigarette papers to patch bullets seems to be the first legitimate use for the darn things I have ever heard about, IMHO.

 

[bighole]

Looks like my post got hijacked a bit. Good info but kinda off track of my question.

Back to the original question.

I suspect there may be an element of this, although so far as I know the top LR shooters at last years World Championships mostly (if not all) used PP bullets. If there was an advantage to be had from GG bullets in the LR ML rifles then I am sure more of these top riflemen would be using them.

David

I think it would make a great article for your website why top LRML shooters use paper patch over grease groove and any actuall testing they did to arrive at that decision. Alot of people will use what someone tells you they use and it may work very well. It doesn't necessarily mean they did any testing to see why it works better than something else.

The paper for PP bullets isn't that easy to find. The Eaton 9lb airmail paper mentioned in all the PP articles no longer exists. I have all the big office supply stores out by me and none of them have Onion skin paper. I don't see it on their websites either. Buffalo Arms and J Cunard have supplies of 100% cotton they stocked up on but when it's gone that's it. The 25% Fidelity I found at only 2 places on the internet and one wants $16 a ream. Add your shipping and it's not that cheap. What happens if Fidelity changes their formula or drops the product altogether? That's a negative for the PP bullets in my opinion. What did Richard Corbin say in his article "Get a lifetime supply of it." Well, how much is that?

There's only one PP bullet mold for ML out there that I can find from J Cunard for $200. If you want to get the equipment to swage them from RCE, you need $700 ($300 for dies, $300 for a press & $100 for a core mold) You can't use your reloading press for 500+ gr bullets. That's alot of an investment to find out if they really shoot better or if there's no difference and it's just a traditional thing.

The bullets out there for sale aren't even the correct size. The main PP article http://www.iastate.edu/%7Ecodi/PPB/PPB.html mentions you need .443 bullets. The ones sold by Montana Precision Swaging, Buffalo Arms are .440. That requires 3 wraps of paper not 2 like the article mentions.

I'm not saying I wouldn't use them but I'd just like to hear why I should other than some of the top guys use them. That's why I posed the original question of why the top guys use them.

Thanks!!

 

[faw3]

Dang but I couldnt read thru that site you put up, I think Ive even forgot what was the "Q" now. If you have MB from 2002 thru 2004 some place is a short story about a man from SOUTH AFRICA that just blows away all takers, even the "load from the end boys" Sharps and such, you should read how he came up on paper patching and how and also why he won so much with them,seemed like a really nice guy you might want to contact, he wasnt shy about telling how he did his loads to win I think it was the big one a few years. FRED :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Have you talked to print shops who do wedding invitations? I still see the onion skin paper being used in those announcements and invitations. The printers must be getting the paper somewhere. NO?

 

[ResearchPress]

If you have MB from 2002 thru 2004 some place is a short story about a man from SOUTH AFRICA

The article you're referring to is I think "Long Range Shooting with the Parker Hale Volunteer", published in MB, March 2001. The author won the 'South African Championships' which included breechloaders. The 3rd MLAIC World Long Range Muzzle Loading Championships took place in South Africa in 2001, but he did not take part.

There's mention of the potential for lubes to melt on GG bullets in hot conditions, whereas this is not an issue with PP. The author also expresses the opinion that PP bulets are "less affected by weather conditions and temperature than greased bullets", but there's no detail of any testing. It's a good article, but doesn't give any detail as to why PP bullets might be better than GG at long range.

David

 

[miles fenton]

I always paper patched, both for ML and BL long range matches.
For the BL I had the forcing cone reamed for paper patch.
I suggest you try drafting paper 1000H (absolutely standard, available at any drafting supply house) this is .002 thou thick (nominal) and very consistant.
Hand rolling paper patches can be a very soothing and almost automatic exercise while watching TV (or listening to Paul Desmond on Sax) as David suggests.
Ask yourself why the ultimate accuracy slug gun shooters ALWAYS use paper patch.
Miles.

 

[faw3]

Thats the one thanks , thats a need to read if your shooting 1000 or more, it sure changed how I shot my VOL and the results was like hed done Vodooo or something, seems like for 6 months they ran something like that, the Brits and Rigbeys ect. FRED :hatsoff: