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Long Range Shooting Positions

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I don't know about cross stick shooting but the NMLRA has given me a card allowing me to shoot chunk off a table due to physical disabilities. It says a "T" shaped table like those used in table shooting. The prone shooters, I feel, have a much steadier position than those of us on a table.
 
From my understanding if you have a physical condition which limits you from shooting, i.e., shooting cross sticks sitting on the ground, you can go to your local doctor and discuss your situation, The Doctor can evaluate you and write a letter stating that to shoot cross sticks you need to be able to shoot from sitting in a chair versus sitting on the ground..

You can forward the letter and ask for a waiver from the NMLRA. As folks get older they would rather have you shooting versus sitting at home. I know variances have been granted for cross sticks, a youth was granted a variance and variances have been granted to folks in wheel chairs to shoot off hand rifle matches.
You can shoot from a chair without a doctor's letter but you do need a letter if the chair has a back on it. I shoot sitting even though my back has been giving me fits lately !
 
In the ML Long Range events held is there a event/position for sitting and cross stick use? I ask because I'm one of those individuals that due to injury and stroke can no longer shoot from prone or off hand. Still healthy enough sit, stand and load, with a desire to test my skill and rifle with others. Thank you,
Kno-ie
KIMG0594.JPG

I hear ya brother, two knees, a reconstructed pelvis and a lifetime if arthritis and I'm not doing any prone or cross legged seated positions anymore either! I think I could shoot off hand but they don't allow it at our range anyway. I make good use of the concrete benches and an adjustable monopod at the muzzle. Works great. I also knocked together that little holding/loading bracket that I clamp to the bench. It all works pretty good!
Neil
 
I'm of the notion that if you can't get into position using a wrist rest and or slings or cross ticks, any of the back positions really aren't going to work.
 
Can't speak from experience in the muzzleloader world -- still consider myself fairly new to it all. But from messing around with airguns for a while, I'm skeptical that any of those positions would work at longer ranges. Granted, it's not that they couldn't work. I just doubt that they would without considerable practice.

Spring-powered and gas-piston airguns are almost always shooting at sub sonic velocities. So there is plenty of movement that happens between the time that the trigger is pulled and the pellet leaves the barrel. As a result, they are extremely sensitive to hold positions. Groups can triple in size or more depending on where one's support hand grips the rifle or where your cheek rests and how firm a pressure your body touches the rifle. Benchrest? Only if you rest it on your hand in the exact same spot and rest your hand on the bench. Thousands of pellets downrange have confirmed this for me.

Smoke-poles don't shoot that slow but between the time that the trigger is pulled, the hammer falls, the powder is ignited and the ball makes it out of the muzzle, I doubt that the total time is much different from a spring airgun, possibly even slower. They don't have the 2-direction recoil forces of the airguns (back, hard forward then back again). But it's still a long time -- long enough for the rifle to move differently if held differently, which would cause the ball to strike differently. Even centerfire rifles show this when resting on a hard vs soft object. Rest that rifle on a hard piece of wood and you'll see the bullet strike a few inches or more higher than it would if rested on a backpack or other soft object. When the rifle is held differently, it will shoot differently. At shorter ranges, I doubt it would matter much. But longer ranges always magnify these effects.

Then there's the safety aspect of having the bore so close to your feet...
 
Can't speak from experience in the muzzleloader world -- still consider myself fairly new to it all. But from messing around with airguns for a while, I'm skeptical that any of those positions would work at longer ranges. Granted, it's not that they couldn't work. I just doubt that they would without considerable practice.

Spring-powered and gas-piston airguns are almost always shooting at sub sonic velocities. So there is plenty of movement that happens between the time that the trigger is pulled and the pellet leaves the barrel. As a result, they are extremely sensitive to hold positions. Groups can triple in size or more depending on where one's support hand grips the rifle or where your cheek rests and how firm a pressure your body touches the rifle. Benchrest? Only if you rest it on your hand in the exact same spot and rest your hand on the bench. Thousands of pellets downrange have confirmed this for me.

Smoke-poles don't shoot that slow but between the time that the trigger is pulled, the hammer falls, the powder is ignited and the ball makes it out of the muzzle, I doubt that the total time is much different from a spring airgun, possibly even slower. They don't have the 2-direction recoil forces of the airguns (back, hard forward then back again). But it's still a long time -- long enough for the rifle to move differently if held differently, which would cause the ball to strike differently. Even centerfire rifles show this when resting on a hard vs soft object. Rest that rifle on a hard piece of wood and you'll see the bullet strike a few inches or more higher than it would if rested on a backpack or other soft object. When the rifle is held differently, it will shoot differently. At shorter ranges, I doubt it would matter much. But longer ranges always magnify these effects.

Then there's the safety aspect of having the bore so close to your feet...

The shooting sticks I designed have been very effective with air rifle use. When using the Artillery hold or the suspended leather strap on my sticks both shoot very close. I originally made them for muzzleloader rifles but my Air Arms TX200 does well with them too.
 
it looks like the top one is a SHARPS with the hammer down & the bottom one is a ROLLER with the hammer back!?
 
View attachment 102569
I hear ya brother, two knees, a reconstructed pelvis and a lifetime if arthritis and I'm not doing any prone or cross legged seated positions anymore either! I think I could shoot off hand but they don't allow it at our range anyway. I make good use of the concrete benches and an adjustable monopod at the muzzle. Works great. I also knocked together that little holding/loading bracket that I clamp to the bench. It all works pretty good!
Neil
don't ever count us over 70++++ old guys out. we were in the sport since we were WHIPPERSNAPPERS, as GABBY HAYSE used to say!! any one remember him? YER DERN TOOTIN!! as he used to say!
 
after using them shooting positions, I would surely need a doctors slip for work!!! my GOD!! you would rely have to be rely young or double jointed to get into those positions!! and then to get up & out of them!!!!
Well the guys in the illustrations aren't depicted as elder gentlemen, eh? 🧓

I think too that the one where the arm goes behind and supports the head is due to rules regarding positions and not on actual applications..., why not have a supporting cushion, or ..., perhaps this was a proposed long range shooting stance for soldiers and one cannot tote such a cushion around in combat, eh? 💂‍♂️

LD
 
don't ever count us over 70++++ old guys out. we were in the sport since we were WHIPPERSNAPPERS, as GABBY HAYSE used to say!! any one remember him? YER DERN TOOTIN!! as he used to say!
Hi TOOTS---Do you meed "George" Gabby Hyse?? Great caricture. Always fun.. I remember him well.. O.D.
 
The top picture is from a few weeks ago at Oak RIdge.

The other one is of the guy from NZ and from one of the World matches. We shot together for that week. He shoots from the back position as the result of necessity. Bike accident if I remember correctly.
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Fleener
 
I don't know about cross stick shooting but the NMLRA has given me a card allowing me to shoot chunk off a table due to physical disabilities. It says a "T" shaped table like those used in table shooting. The prone shooters, I feel, have a much steadier position than those of us on a table.

I like it. so simple, but functional!
Very cool design. Simple and to the point. I like the interchangeabl tips. Back in the 70s I served in the US Army in Germany on a Temporary Duty assignment with the German Army. They taught us to ski and shoot from Skis like the Biathlon event in the Olympics. we'd ski from target to Target and use our poles as a very similar set up. By looping the handle straps over the opposite pole and spiking the poles into the snow up to the snow stop it would provide a surprisingly stable "V" for the weapon to rest in. As for the skis, you'd put one pointing at the target then pick the other ski up and set it on top of the first ski effectively keeping each ski in a good stopped position till you moved the upper ski.
Neil
 
after using them shooting positions, I would surely need a doctors slip for work!!! my GOD!! you would rely have to be rely young or double jointed to get into those positions!! and then to get up & out of them!!!!
We had a gentleman in his 90s in our club that shot from the back position, while he could no longer shoot prone. The position was stable, comfortable and the recail was more manageable for him when shooting long range muzzle loading out to 1000 yards. Those I know who shoot from the back position say it is comfortable.

David
 
Well the guys in the illustrations aren't depicted as elder gentlemen, eh? 🧓
I think too that the one where the arm goes behind and supports the head is due to rules regarding positions and not on actual applications..., why not have a supporting cushion, or ..., perhaps this was a proposed long range shooting stance for soldiers and one cannot tote such a cushion around in combat, eh? 💂‍♂️
If you look on my web page on the back position where the illustration shared also appears you will find a description of who is in position. Also look at the two photos in my article - the top one is a late friend from my club who shot in the back position into his 90s. The shooting positions were those adopted in long range target shooting matches where no artificial support for the rifle was permitted. The arm passing behind the head enabled support of the head and the use of the tang mounted rear sight. Other variants came about and heel mounted sights were used.

David
 
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